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  • 1.  Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    Posted 09-09-2021 06:35 PM
    I know very llitle about this but Irecall that very high amounts of energy (momentum) can be st;ored on flywheels, very large heavy disks that spin at high rpm, on axles supported on ball bearings, in an enclosed container (do not want this thing to fly apart out in the open) and the container is air evacuated to near vacuum. Very little friction loss. How could this be used? Stationary Vehicles. I know not from whence I speak; I am a lawyer, not an engineer. I would like to hear any thoughts on this.    


  • 2.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 09-10-2021 09:15 AM
    The technology is more or less set, the economy requires scale-up. The challenge is providing a positive regulatory environment thru rate setting to accommodate this relatively narrow but vital niche. Regulators are still in an embryonic state on this policy. This may be where your legal skillset can come into play. PS, the answer can be both.--
    Mark Burger

    Follow me on Linkedin and Twitter #markburgerenerg






  • 3.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    Posted 09-10-2021 09:30 AM
    My understanding is that despite efforts to minimize losses (e.g., air cushion bearings) it still takes a lot of energy to keep a massive flywheel spinning - and to spin it back up after being depleted. As such, this technology is more appropriate for smoothing loads in large scale systems with batteries or other systems still providing the deep energy storage. Different technologies are applicable to different systems. Energy storage will take different forms dependent upon the situation. Kinetic energy storage will likely play its biggest role in assuring power quality

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    Tracy Dahl
    Polarsolar@hughes.net
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  • 4.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 09-10-2021 09:37 AM
    Vaguely remember a lot of study done on flywheels, but reason to be discounted no.  An Internet search will probably provide as much reasoning as this website. Always good to engage in study.
                           dnb





  • 5.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 09-10-2021 10:27 AM
    Harmon -

    Flywheels can store a lot of energy, but they're not without their challenges.  Efficiency concerns dictate very close attention to friction reduction schemes, like maglev bearings and evacuated containers, and the competing technologies (batteries, capacitors, pumped storage hydro) set the bar pretty high.  Lower-speed flywheels are heavy.  Lightweight flywheels have to spin extremely fast (dentist drill speeds) to store much energy, which makes any structural failure catastrophic.

    In vehicles, crash safety is a very big deal, and precession forces aren't trivial (they're usually addressed by putting two counter-rotating flywheels in one container).  Speaking as an automotive engineer with 40 years experience in energy and emissions development, there are a few reasons to consider flywheels in terrestrial vehicular applications, but a whole lot more reasons not to.  I suspect my colleagues in the utility and off-grid world would say the same.

    Hope this helps.  Best,

    Dave Erb





  • 6.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    Posted 09-10-2021 10:40 AM
    Unfortunately for the vast majority of applications the economics don't work to use flywheels.  The possible exceptions are applications that cycle a million or more times (capturing and returning energy from subway train stops, extreme grid stability issues).  
    Power density of flywheels is a little better than lead acid batteries, but the energy density is much worse.  
    Tracy is correct, the parasitic losses are high.  And Dave is correct, no one will want a 60,000rpm flywheel in their truck when they can have a non moving lithium ion battery.
    We developed flywheels for transportation and stationary applications in the 1990s, but the lithium ion battery came in and proved a much better solution.

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    Brian Jensen
    brian@jensenenergyresearch.com
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  • 7.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 09-10-2021 11:09 AM
    I was considering stationary applications.--
    Mark Burger

    Follow me on Linkedin and Twitter #markburgerenerg






  • 8.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    Posted 09-10-2021 12:37 PM
    The only stationary application where it may make sense in my opinion is to smooth out the fluctuations at the transit substations.  Dozens of 10-15 second full capacity high power cycles per day by trains entering and leaving the stations.

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    Brian Jensen
    brian@jensenenergyresearch.com
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  • 9.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 09-10-2021 01:19 PM
    Yeah, that sounds right, how will regulators price that value?--
    Mark Burger

    Follow me on Linkedin and Twitter #markburgerenerg






  • 10.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 09-10-2021 02:22 PM
    A flywheel installation has been operating near my home (a one hour drive) for the past ten years.