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Net Metering Support and Legislation

  • 1.  Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Posted 04-20-2022 10:54 AM
    As a relatively new solar system owner, I want to be more involved in helping legislation pass to make solar more "Fair" in terms of true net metering in my state (Georgia).

    I am starting with my local energy co-op, and have started the process of meeting with the board of directors over the co-op. I have little hope it will do much to change policy, but it's a start. I have a feeling most of them are not even aware of the solar policies and practices in place. If it helps bring a little awareness, it's worth my time.

    I have also already contacted both my state legislators in both chambers, and my congressional representatives in both chambers about my concerns. Again, it's a start. I realize some staffer will probably respond to my first several emails, but I know the game and I'm persistent. I just want to educate them on real world information on how billion dollar companies are keeping clean energy, and energy independence out of reach for their constituents. It's not the cost of solar that is the barrier once you break it down, its the unfair policies of the power companies.

    My current price structure:
    $30 utility connection fee
    $7.5 solar connection fee
    $.05% Fuel surcharge, $7% local taxes, $7% state taxes (all based on my subtotal from fee's + kWh imported - kWh exported)

    kWh import: $0.097 (This varies every month, I have to do the math and remove the fees to know the exact number each month.)
    kWh export: $0.042 (This varies every month, I have to do the math and remove the fees to know the exact number each month.)

    I imported 175 kWh of energy from the grid this month, and exported 956 kWh. Give or take I exported 5x the amount of energy I imported, yet I still had a power bill ($12) because the company gives me less than half the rate for selling them power as I get for importing power from them, on top of all the connection fee's.

    I personally don't mind the connection fee's, if I had true $1 for $1, kW for kW net metering. I understand their argument for "Maintaining the grid" and overhead costs. I own a business, I get it. Having both in place makes solar impossible to be "worth it" or even a "cost saving" investment at this point. This energy policy is 100% preventing many people that I talk to from investing in solar. I know they are interested in solar, because I get questions about my system all the time, but these fee's and price structure make it almost impossible to justify the cost of solar once they do the basic math. I knew I was going to be paying more for my system than I was my power bill alone, and I was okay with that sacrifice, but many look at solar as a "cost savings", and that just doesn't add up in Georgia.

    The power company sold the energy I produced from my solar system for $93 to my neighbors, yet I only received a $38 credit for it, which didn't even cover the hidden fee's, much less the 175 kW I had to import. I would even be okay with a reduced rate for export AFTER my bill is $0, but solar producers in Georgia are getting taken advantage of by these policies and there is no way to win. Not to mention, they limit the amount I am allowed to sell back at any given time to 10 kWh. Why limit how much I can sell export on panels I made the investment to purchase? (My inverter can only handle 9,000w anyways so that doesn't matter as much, but it's the principle of it)

    If I had true $1 for $1 net metering, even after my large solar loan I would still be right at even with my old power bill most months, and that's without paying back the 23% on the loan and just pocketing that rebate money. As it stands now, my solar loan alone is more than my old power bill, and I still have a power bill (Again, I knew this when I made the decision and was willing to make that sacrifice). At least breaking even if I had net metering would be an incentive for many to invest in clean energy, or those like me who were more concerned about energy independence, to make the investment.

    Has anyone else had any luck contacting their state legislators, power company board, or congressional representatives?

    ------------------------------
    Robert Edwards
    b1edwards@bop.gov
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Posted 04-21-2022 09:42 AM
    I hope to have my system up and running very soon after a long drawn out process that I must admit was way longer than promised. My EMC has said they will allow net metering over the 10kW limit and I am saving their email with that stated in case they change their minds. I read recently that Ca. has a decent policy on net metering but some in their legislature want to eliminate it and actually charge customers with solar systems a higher rate than all others. They are trying to say it is racist to have a solar system. They are saying by not buying power from the grid, you do not contribute to the power providers to maintain the grid system and only rich people can afford a solar system so it must be racist that the poor cannot afford any solar. The poor therefore pay all the maintenance costs. Of course this is BS as those with solar systems pay a higher meter fee than those without. I live in Georgia as well and hope they do not follow suit with CA. Our system, if it ever comes on line is a 19.8kW with 26kW battery backup and I know we will never break even. But, when we sell our house, we will recouip most of our investment and there is that 26% tax credit still in effect for this year.

    ------------------------------
    Barry Rosenberg
    British Car Service
    britcars@bellsouth.net
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Posted 04-21-2022 10:18 AM
    Be sure to read your agreement when you sign for your solar connection when it is all fully operational. Mine had in it 10kw max grid sell in the writing of the agreement. It didn't matter to me, my inverter can only handle 9,000w grid well which i was not aware of when i bought it.

    As far as paying to maintain the grid, you will still pay a monthly connection fee to be connected to the grid. Ours just went up $5 starting this month as a matter of fact. They justify that fee for providing maintenance on the grid over what they charge you for producing energy, so that excuse is BS. My $30 connection fee is my contribution to maintain the grid.

    My argument with my EMC is that the EMC is by definition a "Not for Profit" organization. They exist to support it's members. I have it in black and white, in their by-laws. I will be arguing at their next board meeting that they are not keeping the best interest of all their members by charging me a $7.50 solar fee for "Administrative cost" when there is no additional administrative cost just because I have solar panels. It's all automated as far as billing, I check my solar production and energy amounts every single day on their website. No one is doing it by hand.

    I'm also going to argue that buying my energy at "Wholesale" cost ($0.04) and then selling it to my neighbor at "Retail" cost ($0.097) is un-ethical, and violates their stated mission of "A cooperative non-profit basis for the mutual benefit of its patrons." 

    Another note o your 19.8kw panels. I assume you have 2 inverters? What I found is even though I have 12.8kw of panels, my inverter can only handle 9,000w AC at any given time, so I'm limited on what I can sell back by my home load during the day (which is around 400w most of the time unless my AC kicks on) so I can only sell back around 8600W throughout the day.

    ------------------------------
    Robert Edwards
    b1edwards@bop.gov
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Posted 04-21-2022 02:03 PM
    As a long-time solar owner, I have been confused, to say the least, with the assertions that the IOUs are making about rooftop solar and how it is costing other ratepayers (note they don't even bother to call us "customers").  I remember reading articles from years ago that clearly defined cost benefits to the grid from having distributed generation.

    Does ASES have a science-based white paper that summarizes the benefits, as well as true costs or negative impacts, of rooftop solar (or distributed generation in general)?  It would be great to have evidenced-based talking points to rebut some of these arguments.

    Thank you
    Mike DiPaola







  • 5.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Posted 04-22-2022 05:03 AM
    A white paper on this would be fantastic to have to support my statements when I start meeting with all these people!

    ------------------------------
    Robert Edwards
    b1edwards@bop.gov
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    ASES Award Winner
    Posted 04-21-2022 06:03 PM
    Robert, you don't say what State you are in. If there is an SEIA state or regional industry chapter or an ASES
    Chapter, they usually have efforts to lobby on net metering issues with State legislatures, and at the Public
    Utility Commissions.

    I actually do not agree with you on fees. In the State of VA every single rate payer , pays a separate fee for
    distribution and for transmission on their bill, this is fair.

    But why are solar photovoltaics users any different than users who have solar water heating or geothermal
    heat pumps, or LED lights, or superinsulation ? I do not believe there is any difference other than "restraint of
    trade" on solar electric self-users. Bad policy.

    Reards, Scott

    Scott Sklar

    President

    The Stella Group, Ltd.

    706 North Ivy Street, Arlington, VA 22201

    VA Phone:  703-522-1195 (3049 direct)

    E-mail:   solarsklar@aol.com

    Website:  www.TheStellaGroupLtd.com

     

    The Stella Group, Ltd.. is a global strategic technology optimization owner's rep firm for 

    clean energy users and companies, with a focus on system standardization, 

    modularity and web-enabled diagnostics.  Scott Sklar is an Adjunct Professor at 

    The George Washington University teaching three unique interdisciplinary 

    sustainable energy courses, and an Affiliated Professor with CATIE, an 

    international graduate university in Costa Rica offering graduate degrees

    on sustainability. Sklar is the Sustainable Energy Director at GWU's Environment 

    and Energy Management Institute (EEMI). ). and his summer graduate GWU course

    "Renewable Energy & Critical Infrastructure" is the first such course in the USA.



    ------------------------------
    Scott Sklar
    President & Adj Professor
    The Stella Group, Ltd, GWU EEMI
    Arlington, VA
    solarsklar@aol.com
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Posted 04-22-2022 05:02 AM
    I'm in Georgia, it was in my first sentence, but with all I typed it probably got lost lol

    As far as fees, I think its just terminology. If you're paying for "distribution and for transmission" and I'm paying $30 connection fee, i think it's probably the same concept. I don't know how much your fee for this is.

    What I absolutely can't agree with is being charged an extra $7.50 just because I have solar panels. That is ridiculous. Lots of bad policy for sure, and my local Co-Op is already aggravated with me because I asked for in writing answers to several very difficult questions about their fee structure, want their financial audit since they are a "Non-profit" and have requested to speak at the next board meeting and annual member meeting. They are not happy with me. Luckily, I can cover 90% of my regular energy use with my solar and batteries. Minor changes to my daily routine and that can easily be 100% if they shut off my power!


    ------------------------------
    Robert Edwards
    b1edwards@bop.gov
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 04-26-2022 12:37 PM
    Edited by william fitch 04-26-2022 12:37 PM
    "But why are solar photovoltaics users any different than users who have solar water heating or geothermal heat pumps, or LED lights, or superinsulation ?"
    That's easy. None of the other actions can export energy, only curtail grid use. So you can kill their cash flow beyond yourself. One individual can have the same effect as loosing 10 customers, etc...


    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    fcfcfc@ptd.net
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Posted 04-27-2022 04:55 AM
    "One individual can have the same effect as loosing 10 customers"

    I'm not sure how you calculate this data. I have MINIMAL energy use during the day. I'm talking less than 400w most of the day consumed by my "load" unless my AC kicks on or fridge compressor kicks on for a few minutes, which means I am selling back almost all day long (my batteries are normally 100% by 1030am. I have way more panels than I need (12.8kwh), and more than I can even use, I have yet to even hit 90% efficiency compared to what I'm capable of, and usually hover less than 60% after my batteries are re-charged.

    Even with this, I only exported 950kwh this month. That's less than 1 average home (average is around 1,150kwh in this area). I have one of the bigger residential arrays in my entire area and I can only basically energize 2 houses.

    Even if that were the case, and I could power 10 households. There are 10's of thousands of customers in my co-op (I am working on getting that exact number now) and, maybe a hundred, probably less, solar energy exporters (Working on that exact number as well). The impact to their cash-flow is minimal, even if they were to do a fair $1 for $1 net metering policy. This is what I am working on trying to prove to them using their own data and their own financial disclosure.


    ------------------------------
    Robert Edwards
    b1edwards@bop.gov
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 04-27-2022 06:04 AM
    Edited by william fitch 04-27-2022 06:11 AM
    You are being too literal in the numbers. My point is that you can export energy, whether 1 watt or 50KW. Energy efficiency, if you wish, is zero export.
    Politics and its associated rules and outcomes are usually about concepts and intensions, not whether a particular number is 5 or 10. The "concept" from their perspective is if you get enough distributed generation, they are "out of business". Ultimate demand destruction, which for RE and humans survival would be great. But not for the entrenched profit makers.
    To be clear, I am not in favor of solar fees of any form, but for different reasons than stated.

    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    fcfcfc@ptd.net
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 04-21-2022 06:18 PM
       Some states have regulations that provide most of the net metering that you seek.  It will be good if you can start to move your state legislature.  It is also good that you contacted your people in Congress.  As you pointed out, it may not happen soon, but if federal regulations require net metering nationwide, many people will find solar electricity to be affordable. 
       For people who do not want to wait, there are other ways to economically use renewable energy.  Solar hot water does not need to tie in to the grid, and it does not come with a lot of fees.  Solar electricity can be installed to supply your home and not connect to the grid.  Batteries can store the energy for nighttime use, and you can buy electricity if needed.  At my home, if the electric company had all of those fees and low export rate, I would disconnect from the grid.





  • 12.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Posted 04-28-2022 11:03 AM
    What is a "fair" price for electricity imported back to the Utility?  That is a good question and I would love to see the utilities and the renewable energy community sit down and work this out. I have no hope of this happening soon as both sides are entrenched in their own self interest. Some observations of mine:
    1. We need electric utilities and the grid for the foreseable future (at least my lifetime). We are in a race to get to net carbon neutral society by 2050 and the electric industry is a major player in this plan. Our magazine, Solar Energy Today, in every issue tells us about the progress being made in renewable energy. The fact is; however, 100% of the electricity now produced by non-carbon sources of wind, hydropower, nuclear, and geothermal would be useless without the grid and the utility distribution system; along with 66% of the electricity produced by solar (2/3 of solar PV power in the US is now industrial scale as opposed to consumer rooftop solar and increasing rapidly). So the grid and the utility infrastructure must be preserved if we have any hope of combatting climate change. Who is going to pay for this infrastructure? There are only two possibilities: the government or you the consumer.
    2. I agree that the amalgamation of utility fees for solar customers' use of the grid is not very logical, but this is a result of both sides fighting each other instead of coming up with a sensible solution for BOTH sides. What is clear to me is that a 1 to 1 true net metering is unsustainable for the utility in the long run. It is irrelevant when the solar importers are a few percent of the total load, but as the number of rooftop solar installations increase, as we hope they will to meet our climate goals, it will affect the utility's finances. Hence, the addition of all these connect fees, etc. If you buy a product for the same price as you sell it for, you go out of business (I know many people hate the utilities and they think they wouldnt care if this happens, but see # 1 above). We have lots of wind power in Western Kansas, and most of the wind farms are set up as  Independent Power Producers who sell their electricity to the utilities via the grid. The going price today of the wind power purchase ageements is just shy of 4 cents a KW/hr, which is less that half of what the utility will sell it for.  This is sustainable situation for both sides. Rooftop solar must eventually come to a similar arrangement.
    3. If the electric grid ​is essential today, just wait till we all have electric vehicles, the rail system is electrified, we heat/cool our homes with heat pumps, and natural gas is replaced with hydrogen produced by electrolysis. All these are in various government plans to meet our climate goal.

    ------------------------------
    Thomas Grant
    Director
    XanaduEnergy
    Fairway KS
    tjg4@aol.com
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    ASES Award Winner
    Posted 04-28-2022 11:21 AM
    The basis for selling electricity to the electric grid, as established in the late
    1970's by passage of the Public Utilities Regulatory Policies Act (PURPA),
    required a "fair & reasonable rate" for the electric power.

    "Fair and reasonable" was based on a principle of "avoided cost" which
    is "what it would cost the electric utility to build a new electric power plant
    at that time".

    So the utilities threw up a concept for "stand by" charges in that, these small power
    producers may need power when the sun doesn't shine, and the utility needs to be 
    prepared, and the utility is not paid for their fair share of costs for distribution and 
    transmission.

    In VA, every ratepayer has both a separate monthly distribution fee and transmission
    fee to address that, and that is the way it should be addressed.

    As for having reserves, why are solar generators any different than owners of solar
    water heaters, geothermal heat pumps, or userd of  high-value energy efficiency such as
    LED lights, Energy Star appliances, super-insulation, etc ?  That's the utility's job, and
    in no way should it impact rates for on-site electric power.

    Electric rate design is a critical issue. And right now it is discriminating against residences
    and small businesses who generate their electricity.

    Scott Sklar
    former Ex Dir of SEIA 1985-2000

    Scott Sklar 
    Adjunct Professor & Sustainable Energy Director
    Environment & Energy Management Institute (EEMI)
           and Director, GWU Solar Institute
    The George Washington University (GWU)
    Personal email: solarsklar@aol.com Ph 703-522-3049





  • 14.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 04-29-2022 10:38 AM
    Seems to me connection of utility companies to a common grid is of vastly more importance that trying to extract funds for your own pocket.  The Northeast seems to be littered with small independent companies that made sense over a hundred years ago, but for integrating the grid and advancing solar not at all.  Changing utility companies from just generators to distributors is a much more challenging item.  In Tacoma, we have our own hydropower dam as does Seattle and many places in my vicinity.  Accepting the concept of receiving power is not easy.  British Columbia Hydroelectric (BCHydro is the name so the 'average' consumer is not confused.) and I submit probably the most progressive utility company in the Pacific Northwest.  Hawaii Electric was forced into their current position despite any appearances, currently, otherwise. 

    Integrating the North American is my priority, not reimbursement.
    Thanks.
                                                       dnb
    Dale N. Bickenbach 
    5232 South Mason Avenue Tacoma, Washington 
    98409-1817 
    +1 253 475 5242  Worldwide Cell 
    or 2-2223 Sapporo Drive Whistler, British Columbia V8E 0B5 
    SKYPE: dale.n.bickenbach
    WhatsApp





  • 15.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Posted 04-29-2022 10:53 AM
    The real time value of solar energy, being coincident to the grid's daily peak demand and being distributed near its electrical end uses makes it more valuable than the Net Energy credits, so let's just keep it simple.  The studies that were completed by many states around the country a few years ago pegged the value at around $0.30/kWh, back when grid supplied electricity cost less than it does today.  Utility companies, that are just wires (T&D) utilities shouldn't have an issue with this.  They are getting a bargain, as well as their monthly customer service charges.

    ------------------------------
    Michael Mayhew
    President, Sr. Energy Engineer
    Heliotropic Technologies
    coolsolarguy@yahoo.com
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Posted 04-29-2022 11:00 AM
    The real time value of solar energy, being coincident to the grid's daily peak demand and being distributed near its electrical end uses makes it more valuable than the Net Energy credits, so let's just keep it simple.  The studies that were completed by many states around the country a few years ago pegged the value at around $0.30/kWh, back when grid supplied electricity cost less than it does today.  Utility companies, that are just wires (T&D) utilities shouldn't have an issue with this.  They are getting a bargain, as well as their monthly customer service charges.

    ------------------------------
    Michael Mayhew
    President, Sr. Energy Engineer
    Heliotropic Technologies
    coolsolarguy@yahoo.com
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 04-30-2022 09:55 AM
    Just for the sake of discussion: Hawaiian Electric (HE) paid back $29.09 U.S. on the latest bill, 16 March -12 April 2022. Six Enphase panels are dedicated for transmitting power back to the grid. The 18 Solar World panels support the house. 2 Aquion battery stacks might to something, maybe not. Numbers given by HE were delivered (DEL) 193 KWH and received (REC) 350 KWH  The payment for the period was $50.96 for the period, above.   DEL KWH/day was 6.89, REC KWH/day was 12.50.  Cost was $1.82 U.S. 
    At first, I thought it would be interesting to track all this.  However, more important things come along and the data collection gets boring.  My sister tracked her panels for 3 years then quit.  Most important is to get off fossil fuel, which is used on Oahu.  Tacoma is, at least, 97% hydroelectric.  If someone can figure out what HE pays have fun.  What Tacoma Power pays I have not a clue.

    Dale N. Bickenbach 
    5232 South Mason Avenue
    Tacoma, Washington 







  • 18.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Posted 04-29-2022 05:05 PM

    Hi Thomas:

    A little orientation.  In a typical electric utility, especially urban, 70% to 80% of the meters are residential, but the other 20% - 30% of commercial, institutional and industrial meters represent 70% to 80% of the sales distribution revenues.  That's why residential roof top, while valuable, has little impact on the utility expenses/revenues.  Also, your exported solar gets consumed in / on your neighborhood distribution grid, with nearly zero impact on the utility grid expenses.  The utility argument that roof top solar has significant impacts on other rate payers, is bogus. It's a smoke screen.  While a net meter retail price may be higher than needed, (especially with 12 -20 cent/kW-hr rates) a fair value feed in tariff price should be offered, a price to "make a market", and provide at least a 10% return for the solar owner, the same return we give/ guarantee to our incumbent utilities.  Also, keep in mind that the other electric utilities, cooperatives and public power municipal's, are non-profit and should be working in the best interest of all, the citizen owners. They need to account for all costs, internal and external environmental, social, community benefits.

     

    Larger cooperative and community solar projects should be emphasize.  Inside the distribution grid.  Did you see the Queued-Up article from Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, that 80% of a net zero carbon target of 2030 is already in the ISO queues, waiting for interconnection approvals.  We are getting there.

     

    Cheers,

     

    Steve Smiley






  • 19.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Posted 05-01-2022 07:17 PM
    Steve
    Thank you for your reply. My original post had two points: 1. We need the utilities and the grid to meet our net zero carbon emission goal by 2050, and 2. A 1 for 1 net metering requirement is non-sustainable in the long run. 

    Your reply had some points that made me think. The first point you made is that residential net metering affects the utility less because industrial/commercial revenues are 70-80% of the total.  I checked on this on a Energy Information Agency site (www.eia.gov/electricity/sales_revenue_price).  There are 1,507 utilities in the US, and if you look at the total revenues of all of them, residential revenue is 49% and commercial/industrial is 51%. So it is about even, not 70-80% commercial/industial.

    I then attempted to try to see the difference between Investor Owned Utility (IOU), Municiple Utility, and Cooperatives. Taking a small sample (not statistically significant) the first thing I found out is that the breakdown of % residential revenue is all over the place. IOUs ranged from 84% for Baltimore Gas & Electric to 40% for Duke Energy Carolinas. Even Con Ed of NY had 60% residential. Same thing for Munis, Fort Collins had 71% and Chatanooga had 44% residential revenue. Big percentages for Coops, 91% for Cobb Electric Membership of Missouri, 81% for Gulf Coast Electric of Florida. Interesting is the Rural Electric Coops have very low percentages, 28% for Cass County Rural Electric Coop of North Dakota for example. So the first thing that is clear to me is that there is no "typical" electric utility and the impact of large market penetration of rooftop solar varies considerably. Interesting that you think the not-for-profit utilities should lead the way on net metering, but many of these not-for-profit utilities are going to be impacted the most by net metering.

    I am not going to argue that many of the utility claims are not greatly exagerated, but again I iterate that the two sides need a dialogue on this issue to come to a "fair" price.

    You mentioned the Queued-Up article by LBL which I wasnt familiar with. Thank you. You state that 80% of our net zero carbon (electric) goal by 2030 is already in the ISO queues waiting to be approved for hookup to the grid. [I am a little confused by this statement. In COP 26, Biden made the pledge of having a net zero electric grid by 2035. In a series of executive actions, he pledged a net zero electric usage by 2030, but I believe this is only for Federal usage, not the goal for the whole grid. If i am wrong, someone please tell me]. I read the LBL article and I found it very impressive, but i came to a slightly different conclusion.  The grid now has 1,200 GW of capacity of which 73% or 876 GW is fossil energy. The latest ISO queues have 930 GW of zero carbon fuel proposed. At first glance it would appear you are correct, but a closer look at the data shows a different story. The report notes that they expect only 23% of these projects to actually be built. This reduces the capacity that will actually be built to 214 GW. To replace a fossil fuel plant with 50% capacity factor (coal) with PV and wind with 25% and 35% capacity factor respectively, you need on average 60% more to equal the amount of electricity produced by the replaced fossil plants. That reduces the present ISO queues with the ability to replace about 134 GW of fossil capacity.  Far short of our net zero electric goal.

    I believe if renewable energy and the need to combat climate change, but we have a long way to go.

    ------------------------------
    Thomas Grant
    Director
    XanaduEnergy
    Fairway KS
    tjg4@aol.com
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Posted 05-02-2022 10:32 AM

    Hi Thomas:

    All good points, you really did some homework! My 70 -80% of revenues from commercial/industrial come from an actual municipal utility, a typical non-high rise city. You are correct, Cooperatives are mostly residential, and there should more small scale solar opportunities there, in particular ground mount systems.  And a high rise big city will have lots of high density apartments, with limited solar opportunities, which point to the need for larger cooperative / community solar.  I have a fun overall grid  harmonization observation with the simple question from a local Muni / Cooperative in the same neighborhood; What demand day of the year has the lowest annual demand for the Muni, and the highest annual demand for the cooperative?  Answer, New Year's Day!

     

    Municipal's and some cooperatives typically have the lowest rates, often 10 to 30% lower than an IOU.  In the Muni I am most familiar with the Muni rate averages $.11/kW-hr while the neighboring IOU is at $.16/kW-hr and higher during some periods.  Your next door neighbor across the street / city border, can be paying 45% more for their electricity.  The citizen owned Muni's have the ability in many places to do the right thing with solar, even if it means raising rates, but if done properly rates should not need to be raised. I say a fair solar price should simply be a 10% return on investment, no different than any utility that gets such a guaranteed return. The social, and environmental external costs need to be accounted for, and if rates need to go up, so be it.  A fair working market must include social and environmental costs.

     

    Another perspective on net metering; when one installs a much more efficient refrigerator, the utility big distribution circuit meter reads lower, when one installs a solar array, the utility big distribution meter reads lower. The utility sees no difference. There is no reason for discrimination. The refrigerator gets the net meter value, why not solar.

     

    Another point I like to make for electric utilities is that they need to double or even triple sales, with electrification.  Higher quantity, lower price. What's not to like?  And with the proper rate structures, time of use rates, rebates, more efficient HVAC, grid harmonization, etc. electric utilities can out-compete natural gas, the real target.

     

    Have you seen the rewiring America" work on electrification?  Saul Griffiths, and team.  They have a really good residential workbook worth a look.

     

    Cheers,

     

    Steve Smiley

     

     

     

     

     






  • 21.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 05-02-2022 10:34 AM
    Reading some of the latest posts below, there is an awful lot of "broad stroking" regarding averages, revenues by type vs actual KWH's used, etc., etc.. Two things. Averages are just a mathematical construct. In the desert, the avg. daily temp often is between 55 and 75 degs F. Much like San Francisco avg. temps. Using that to judge a dwellings needed heating and cooling loads, or a nice place to take a vacation, would be a huge mistake, despite the equal numbers between locations. Peak loads/productions are the measure of reality. Each res by itself is not even a "spec" when compared to the capability of a single industrial site.
    Second, Res systems due to their very small size when compared to commercial power producers can not even come close to competing to the economies to scale regarding initial cost/KWH. Unlike commercial and industrial, res changes in loads/production are far "softer" to the over all system.

    All that aside, maybe the conversation should be how to alter the current utility "model" to meet the RE we need ASAP so as not to "roast to death", rather than how can we change the RE to satisfy the incumbents.
    If you are in a mixed union/non union shop, do you really want to argue over who should disarm the discovered terrorist bomb, based on union or non union, or who's the most qualified for the task at hand.

    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    fcfcfc@ptd.net
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 05-03-2022 11:00 AM
    ".....I know they are interested in solar, because I get questions about my system all the time, but these fee's and price structure make it almost impossible to justify the cost of solar once they do the basic math."
    That's the idea....


    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    fcfcfc@ptd.net
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Posted 05-04-2022 09:17 AM
    So, to follow up, I have talked on the phone with my co-op. Of course, they gave me the run-around saying that they cant possibly give me retail price for my buy-back rate because of all the extra prices and maintenance. They said the actual price just for someone to be "connected" to the grid should be more like $85 a month, not the $30 they charge, and they have to make up the rest in kwh prices. They said they actually purchase power from outside sources at the wholesale rate ($0.04 kw) and the $0.09 price reflects the cost of all the other stuff like maintenance. Nothing new.

    Based on our discussion, I seem to be the first in the co-op that is close to zero import and close to completely eliminating my power bill even after all the monthly fees. So, my argument to them was why all these policies based on "What if" scenarios of thousands of solar producers and the economic impact it could have on the co-op, if I am the only one this close to eliminating my power bill, and only a handful of us are selling energy back at all?

    During this brief phone call, I requested their financial audit which in the bylaws is available to all members. Still no response.
    I also said I would send (and did immediately following our conversation) a list of specific questions I would like answers, or would like to present to the board of directors at the next board meeting if they decline to answer them before then:

    1. How many individual members are in the co-op? (58,000 give or take based on our conversation)
    2. How many solar producers are there in the co-op? (sounds like less than a few dozen based on our conversation)
    3. What the $25 (recently increased to $30) "Connection fee" is used for?
    4. How is the "Connection fee" price determined?
    5. What the $7.50 "solar connection fee" is used for?
    6. How was this price determined?
    7. Why are solar producers being singled out in having to pay additional monthly fees, when in reality everything is automated?
    8. Why is energy exported to the grid from solar producers purchased by the co-op at "Wholesale" cost, and then re-sold to other customers at "Retail"? 
    9. The bylaws state the REMC co-op operates as a "non-profit for the mutual benefit of it's patrons." Are solar customers just as much a part of the co-op as non-solar customers, and should our concerns and fee structure be just as important and mutually beneficial?
    10. Are commercial solar producers (including the co-ops own solar farms) also credited at the "Wholesale" amount that residential customers are for exporting solar energy? If not, why is it a different amount?
    11. Has the Chairman of the board recently, or any time in the past, created a "Committee" as specified in your bylaws to research, discuss, and advise the board on policies and decisions regarding solar energy? If not, who made these policy decisions and why was a committee not formed before making these policy decisions?

    One good point, they have decided to raise the "cap" from 10kwh inverters/grid sell to 25kwh. So that is good news. If I had a better inverter, I could sell back more during the day. I've already talked to my installed about that option.

    ------------------------------
    Robert Edwards
    b1edwards@bop.gov
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Posted 05-04-2022 11:02 AM

    Hi Robert:

    I feel your pain!! Welcome to the electric cooperative wars! You are not alone. There are many fighting this battle and I'll try to connect you.  The Colorado Coops have been having success, with the Tri-State fights, MN has group fighting for democratic cooperatives, Institute for Local Self-Reliance is doing good work.  Basically, our electric cooperatives nationally have a policy of impeding solar energy at every turn, while doing a good green washing job.  I'm a cooperative member too, and have been engaged in the solar fight with them for over a decade. You are asking all the right and good questions.  I'll send you a list of my questions I have had with my cooperative. My cooperative went from full net metering ($.12/kW-hr), with a 20 KW (not kWh, FYI) cap and a small fraction of their energy sales (0.5%!), down to now roughly to $.08/kW-hr, by saying you get to keep all you use per solar day, but exported solar gets $.05/kWh. My local energy activist community fought this at every turn, but could not stop the cut from full net metering. Nine of us attended one of the monthly board meetings to protest, but the board, like most cooperative boards, are controlled by the cooperative manager, and consist of "good old boys" that get a good check to show up every month and follow orders. Of course, that's a generalization, but mostly true. However, times are changing, and you can have influence and make changes.  It takes folks like you to keep the pressure on. My cooperative is not under state regulation and all changes and policies can be made by them in conjunction with the "generation cooperative" they own. A true democratic cooperative has annual financial statements published on their web page, as well as with the generation cooperative.  You can study those to understand the nature of YOUR cooperative. You can run for the elective board of directors, too.

     

    There is a national push by cooperatives (and other utility types) to raise customer fixed monthly fees. This must be stopped. Them saying your monthly fixed fee should be $85 is a bunch of crap. It is basically a move to punish solar customers and low income customers, earning more revenues while saying they are keeping "rates" low. It's a smoke screen. Basically, they want to big customers happy, on the backs of small members.  I like what a rate analyst for RAPP said, "if a grocery store charged a fee to pass through the door, it would be bad business."  There are many ways to get needed revenues.  Fixed fees should never be +/- $10.

     

    You are correct to say that your neighbor gets your solar, on your distribution circuit, paying the retail rate for your solar while you get screwed. It costs the cooperative virtually nothing for them to sell your solar to your neighbor. Under these crappy terms you would think they would have a major PR effort to get as much solar as possible, but NO! Which really tells where they are politically and policy wise.

     

    As you know, an electric cooperative is a non-profit. And you own them as a member. Their goal is to keep revenues greater than expenses and hopefully have a cushion, maybe 10% +/-, often set by fiduciary requirements / responsibilities. Cooperative give some of the excess revenues back to members as capital credits, from time to time. It looks like you have some very low electric rates, that's good. That also means they have room to raise rates on some to get more solar and push back the contracted historic fossil fuel purchases. They can have senior rates, low income rates, time-of-use rates, what ever they want to keep it fair. But basically they are, or may be, bound by their wholesale contracts with their generation cooperative.  

     

    If you study the annual reports for your distribution cooperative, and importantly your generation cooperative you will understand, to be fair, the issues they have, typically being stuck with old long-term contracts for dirty power that may be financially underwater. Most distribution cooperatives have "take or pay" requirements with their generation cooperative which has been used as a impediment to solar.  The Colorado cooperatives (Durango – I forget the names) have been successfully fighting this. My cooperative made a dirty deal some years ago buying into a couple old, dirty coal plants that are underwater.  The management does not want members to really know much about it. We are talking about billions $$$ of losses over the long term contract, all pushed onto us members. They have a contract with an old nuke that is heavily subsidized by neighboring Illinois consumers with a 10% premium on them. And then they do major PR on saying they have some "carbon free" energy.  You learn a lot when you dig into the details.

     

    OK, more later.  Keep up the good work, you are not alone.

     

    Steve Smiley

     

     






  • 25.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 05-05-2022 05:48 PM
    One thing you guys seem to be overlooking is that you are using the utility's wires to transport your sold/exported energy to your neighbors. If you want to receive full price from your neighbor then consider running your own wires to your neighbor instead of using the utility's.  Then you would get full price from your neighbor but you'd spend part of it constructing and maintaining the wires.

    Of course I'm not serious.  By way of background, I have a battery backup, net metered system with over 16kw of nameplate power capacity.  Last month (my first good month this year, btw) my utility paid me $0.0425/kwh for the excess I sent to them, while I normally pay them around $0.14/kwh for what I buy.  So I'm not unsympathetic.  But in the big picture the utility deserves some compensation for use of their system, and for being the supplier of last resort at night or when your battery is low.  The only question is, what is a fair price for us to pay for being grid-connected?

    Let me know what I'm missing here.

    ------------------------------
    Mike Curran
    Retired from (dare I say it?) Fossil Plant Mgt.
    joacchim57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Posted 05-06-2022 09:35 AM

    Hi Mike:

    Yes, 100% net metered prices aren't necessarily fair, but a price to make a market is fair and justified (at least 10% return, in my opinion), say a feed in tariff. But it should not be much less than the retail price, and is some cases the auxiliary benefits, power quality, unaccounted environmental, social and economic benefits, justify a higher price that needs to be paid. At the start of the German feed-in-tariff program solar was paid over 60 cents a kW-hour, given priority to the grid, and the added expense was spread over all the customers, a very small added cost to each customer.  This revolutionized the solar industry.  A residential solar owner invests a lot to benefit the utility, pay's the capital expense and O&M of their system, and may have battery backup.  We pay for the grid connection from the street too, sometimes at great expense, and with a cooperative or Muni we are part owners of the grid. I worked on a wind project that spent over $200,000 connecting to the grid, but did not get to own the wires!  Is that fair? 

     

    It's OK you retired from the fossil business. That's a good thing. If you want to shut down a coal plant it's good to know how to run one. ��.  Maybe Senator Joe Manchin will stop shoveling coal into his coal operations and work on solving the climate crisis.  Lots of good decommissioning work for a generation.

     

    Steve Smiley






  • 27.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Posted 05-06-2022 09:57 AM
    Respectfully, I think what is missing from some of this conversation is the Time of Use (TOU), or Time of Generation.  Solar electricity is generated when the sun is shining during the day when, in most markets and most seasons, demand for electricity is the highest -- and thus the wholesale price / value per kWh is high.  Contrast that to the middle of the night, when electricity demand is very low and the price / value per kWh is low, sometimes negative.  (Yes I am aware of the duck-curve, but except a few areas of the US, solar penetration is low so that is mostly a theoretical issue).

    That being the case, if I generate solar electricity during the day and feed some back to the grid, the value to the utility will be higher per kWh than the kWhs I consume from the grid to charge my EVs between 1 AM and 5 AM.

    Currently I am lucky (?) to still have true net metering where I live, mainly because rooftop solar penetration is still much less than 1% -- but I suspect that the utility comes out ahead with my solar PV system, because of the TOU factors.

    Again, a white paper from a research institute or university would be helpful to consider these factors with hard data.  Does anyone from ASES monitor this forum that could forward that request to the right person / perople?









  • 28.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Posted 05-06-2022 10:54 AM
    Hi Mike
    What is a fair price to pay to be grid connected?  Do you pay a minimum per month? 

    I pay Florida Power & Light $8.55 per month to be connected.   So, I feel like I'm paying my part.  I would oppose paying more though.  

    Thanks, Glenn

    ------------------------------
    Glenn Bowman
    glennbowman@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    ASES Award Winner
    Posted 05-06-2022 11:05 AM
    I agree with this statement:  "But in the big picture the utility deserves some compensation for use of their system, and for being the supplier of last resort at night or when your battery is low. "

    But I disagree with the approach most State PUC's are implementing fees.

    Every rate payer should be charged a monthly distribution fee and transmission fee (which is what we do in VA). It should have nothing to
    do with whether you have a solar electric system, a. solar water heating system, a solar daylighting system, a geothermal heat pump
    system, or whether you installed all LED lights or super-insulation or smart windows.  In fact it needs to be technology & behavior neutral.

    The problem I have it the stand-by charges is that they are penalizing fees ONLY to solar electricity owners.  Why is this fair ?

    Scott Sklar

    _____________________
     
    Scott Sklar
    President
    The Stella Group, Ltd.
    706 North Ivy Street, Arlington, VA 22201
    VA Phone:  703-522-1195 (3049 direct)
    E-mail:   solarsklar@aol.com
     
    The Stella Group, Ltd.. is a global strategic technology optimization owner's rep firm for 
    clean energy users and companies, with a focus on system standardization, 
    modularity and web-enabled diagnostics.  Scott Sklar is an Adjunct Professor at 
    The George Washington University teaching three unique interdisciplinary 
    sustainable energy courses, and an Affiliated Professor with CATIE, an 
    international graduate university in Costa Rica offering graduate degrees
    on sustainability. Sklar is the Sustainable Energy Director at GWU's Environment 
    and Energy Management Institute (EEMI). Sklar teaches the first course in the
    USA on Renewable Energy & Critical Infrastructure' and has two self-powered
    buildings in Arlington, VA where he gives weekly tours primarily to architects,
    engineers, teachers, and students.





  • 30.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Posted 05-06-2022 12:45 PM
    The argument against increased customer service charges for solar system is that if you were to install a pool or AC, or else even more so, get rid of your electric hot water tank with a heat pump hot water heater, your electric heat by switching to heat pumps, incandescent lighting to LED, the utility wouldn't charge you more, though it might cause local distribution changes.  Why charge additional for small, distributed generation, when you don't for energy efficiency improvements.  The utilities have got to do some marketing research and try to get onboard, let alone ahead of what's going on.  We have serious costs associated with climate change that in part the utilities are a driving source.  They should be bending over backwards for us greening their generation mix.  The average cost of electricity, which most net energy policies use versus the real-time time of use value of the electrons.  
    The problem with battery banks is the efficiency losses associated with the energy conversion to and from storage, not to mention the short life and disposal issues with batteries. I'm more into backing up a few dedicated circuits, than the whole house battery bank. It requires a 20% larger solar system, which is costly in so many ways.  If the local utility wants to use your battery backup for their grid reliability, we have something to sell them.  My $14/month customer service charge, plus the few additional kWh/yr that I buy, should be just fine with them, or they should step aside.  We are trying to get rid of our nasty electric company and replace it with a publicly owned electric muni, which will embrace solar electric systems.


    ------------------------------
    Michael Mayhew
    President, Sr. Energy Engineer
    Heliotropic Technologies
    coolsolarguy@yahoo.com
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 05-06-2022 03:21 PM
    I guess I'm lucky since we don't pay anything additional for being grid-tied here in Ohio, probably because there's not as much solar penetration here as in sunnier states.  That will probably change as more people adopt solar, though.

    ------------------------------
    Mike Curran
    Retired from (dare I say it?) Fossil Plant Mgt.
    joacchim57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Posted 05-08-2022 03:08 PM
    It is good to see this discussion on net metering. Typically when you have something to sell, you and the buyer come to terms about the price. In regards to net metering, nothing of the sort has happened.  There has been no dialogue, no understanding of the others point of view or economics. I believe each side is entrenched in its own self interest. Where net metering has been imposed on utilities, they have responded with hand waving arguments and a variety of fees. My hope is that a true dialogue would result in a "fair" tariff that is above wholesale rate but less than the retail rate.  Some other comments:

    Lots of comments about why is solar different than the various technologies that a customer may use to reduce their electric bill. The difference is that Utilities are in the business to sell their electricity, not in the business to sell your electricity. What you do behind the meter is not the utilities' business. When you want to sell electricity back to them, it is their business. I think we all need to get onboard with this concept.

    Several comments on the value of solar electricity imported to the utility. If you believe the value is as high as you see it, why do the utilities not see it that way? There has to be a factual business reason. I would love to see the numbers behind both claims. All I have seen is vague concepts and hand waving arguments from both sides. What are the utilities afraid of: debt/equity ratios, 30 year bonds still out on plants that might be closed, stranded assets, required to pay intangible social costs,  large solar market penetration where net metering becomes non-sustainable?  On the other side, it seems that solar owners want to get as much as they can get, and don't want to entertain any suggestion otherwise. 

    Mr Smiley has suggested a fair tariff is a 10% return on the owners equity. I would love to see the numbers on a typical solar installation. That might be a start of the dialogue.  However, then he suggests that social and environmental cost be included in the tariff. I think that is unworkable because these costs are not only vague and difficult to agree on, but it is the business of the government not the utility to deal with these impacts. I have always thought that a carbon tax would have done wonders to the advance of renewable energy, but nobody likes a tax. We all want somebody else to pay.

    Some comments on TOU value of the solar.  Peak usage for almost all utilities is 4 - 8 PM on a hot summer day when all the air conditioners are on. With global warming, this peak is really straining various parts of the grid. During these times I suspect the utility would be willing to pay whatever you wanted for your solar energy. But what about the other 9 months of the year when there is hardly any strain on the grid? Are solar owners willing to take the wholesale rate for these times? Mr DiPaola suggests that with TOD value the utility comes out ahead with his net metering. That is clearly something that can be calculated. If he or other in his community has his TOD production for the whole year, then maybe with the cooperation of the utility we can see the actual numbers. Might be a start of the dialogue. 

    Some people responded that the IOUs are the problem, and that Munis and Coops are the solution. Others commented that various Coops and Munis were not fully appreciative of solar.   Almost all regulated Utilities are directed by law to provide electricity in a "adequate, efficient, reliable, safe, and least cost manner". While the public wants all of those, the most important item for 90% of the consumers is the "least cost" option. Munis and Coops usually provide lower cost, but don't be surprised when they also oppose net metering. They know that their customers would raise hell if the price went up, and net metering especially for those high residential utilities, does have the potential to do that.  

    So both sides have their self interest and perceptions in this issue. How to agree on a "fair" price?




    ------------------------------
    Thomas Grant
    Director
    XanaduEnergy
    Fairway KS
    tjg4@aol.com
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Posted 05-10-2022 10:15 AM
    Rather than reinvent this, several states & utilities have completed value of solar studies, as outlined and analyzed their value of solar, and it's shown that net metering has a great societal benefit to cost.  Value of Solar: Program Design and Implementation Considerations (nrel.gov)

    ------------------------------
    Michael Mayhew
    President, Sr. Energy Engineer
    Heliotropic Technologies
    coolsolarguy@yahoo.com
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Posted 05-10-2022 04:44 PM
    Michael.  The fact is that this has not been settled.  I am very glad you referenced that NREL study. I am a great fan of NREL. They do good work and I encourage anyone to read the study included in Michael's link.  The study does not conclude what the VOS (value of solar) is but lays out various methodologies and a range of example scenarios that could be used to determine what a solar tariff could be. There is nothing in the study  that concludes that net metering is the "fair" price.  Here is the conclusion of the study:

    "Early feedback indicates that several key considerations can contribute to VOS program success, including
    thoughtfully considering new options, engaging stakeholders in discussions, laying out a path for
    transitioning from existing policies, limiting overall program costs, and creating transparent
    policy design and implementation. In the end, success will stem from a solid understanding of
    local market conditions, and how a new VOS policy can contribute to local policy objectives
    through thoughtful program design."  

    "engaging stakeholders in discussions"  and the utility is one of the stakeholders. Ahmen.  Dialogue between the two camps.  The whole point I am trying to make.

    ------------------------------
    Thomas Grant
    Director
    XanaduEnergy
    Fairway KS
    tjg4@aol.com
    ------------------------------



  • 35.  RE: Net Metering Support and Legislation

    Posted 05-11-2022 09:32 AM
    In Maine, our former Gov, Paul LePage, was not a fan or solar, nor the environment.  We got him to authorize a Value of solar study in 2016 using the NREL model, but included his anti-solar people on the task group and using his approved very conservative value for environmental costs many at not even zero, yet our conservative model, without any environmental costs included concluded that the Value of solar was about 120% of the full Net metered solar credit, and with environmental considerations the real-time value was worth about 200% of the net-metered value.  We wanted to settle on a residential and commercial rate solar bill credits. A solar bill was created and passed unanimously through our state house of Reps and the state senate and then was vetoed by Gov. LePage, and a new credit was promoted by LePage at about 50% the existing net solar credit had been.  This shut down our industry for about 18 months until we could get our new Governor elected.  Gov Mills is progressive and immediately return the net-energy billing credit to what it had been, prior to LePage's market interference.
    I believe that the utility should provide additional funding for limited rooftop solar battery backup, if they want 
    to use that feature for their grid's reliability, on top of a full net metering credit.  The battery back-up is costing system efficiency losses, plus a much higher system cost, and it could become a win-win, for society.  


    ------------------------------
    Michael Mayhew
    President, Sr. Energy Engineer
    Heliotropic Technologies
    coolsolarguy@yahoo.com
    ------------------------------