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Life Cycle Cost Analysis of PV Solar versus Heat Pump

  • 1.  Life Cycle Cost Analysis of PV Solar versus Heat Pump

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 01-11-2022 11:01 AM
    My client is asking for a comparison of between Life Cycle Cost Analysis of PV Solar versus Heat Pump, for an office building, in SE. Pennsylvania. 

    Can anyone help me find the answer?

    Thanks,

    Roya Taheri, Ph.D., A.I.A., LEED AP.
    TAHERI ARCHITECTURE, INC.

    Cell: (215) 600-9812
    rtaheri@taheriarch.com





  • 2.  RE: Life Cycle Cost Analysis of PV Solar versus Heat Pump

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 01-11-2022 11:27 AM
    Roya, Great question! And one that would be great for our Division leaders and local PA folks to help answer. @John Burke @Dara Bortman @Wyldon Fishman @Robert Foster​​​​​

    ------------------------------
    Carly Cipolla
    Director of Engagement
    American Solar Energy Society
    http://ases.org
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Life Cycle Cost Analysis of PV Solar versus Heat Pump

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 01-11-2022 07:23 PM
    Roya,
    Give us a bit more information. Is the house using less energy than it produces? Battery Back up? Which heat pump load with which solar collectors? Will the water runs be maximized.
    I encourage you to join our technical division for building science. We should be offering AIA CEUs on a topic like this one as it is a thermal, passive and electric calculation. Add in lighting loads and proper windowing, etc. 
    Thanks, Dara for your good answer.
    W

    ------------------------------
    Wyldon Fishman
    Bronx NY
    wyldon1@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Life Cycle Cost Analysis of PV Solar versus Heat Pump

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 01-11-2022 03:05 PM
    Hi Roya - 
    I believe we've met before at meetings in various places. Nice to "meet" you again.  It depends on what they use the hot water for, how it's heated now, how much they use, how often, etc., but generally in PA, knowing that we have 4 real seasons with a cold (very cold today!) winter, etc., PV is going to pay for itself much quicker and offset their overall electricity expenses too in addition to hot water.  The cost of PV system have come down over 80% in the past 10 years.  The cost of solar water heating systems are actually about the same...and maybe a bit more right now with the cost of materials, including copper, quite high.  We can discuss further offline if you like and want to get me a bit more information.  You can email me at dara@exactsolar.com.
    Thanks!
    Dara

    ------------------------------
    Dara Bortman
    Exact Solar
    Yardley PA
    dara@exactsolar.com
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Life Cycle Cost Analysis of PV Solar versus Heat Pump

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 01-11-2022 03:07 PM
    Crap!  Sorry! Just realized I misread your message - PV vs heatpump...not hot water.  There are other questions for that.  What do they use now to heat the building (gas, oil, electricity?), how much do they use, what type of space is it, what type of roof and access to sun do they have, etc.  Also can email me separately to discuss that too if you like.
    :-)
    Dara

    ------------------------------
    Dara Bortman
    Exact Solar
    Yardley PA
    dara@exactsolar.com
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Life Cycle Cost Analysis of PV Solar versus Heat Pump

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 01-12-2022 09:01 AM
    Thank you for your responses.
    The office building now uses oil as fuel. They are thinking of using propane gas for the new building which will replace the old building. We are designing a sloped roof. I will contact you with more detail. The question was comparison between a heat pump system (probably air to air), with PV solar system.

    ------------------------------
    Roya Taheri
    President
    Taheri Architecture, Inc.
    Philadelphia PA
    rtaheri@taheriarch.com
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Life Cycle Cost Analysis of PV Solar versus Heat Pump

    Chapter Leader
    Posted 01-13-2022 12:57 PM
    no brainer ---go pv w heatpump over oil and especially propane gas       solar pv costs continue to decline but oil and prop continue to rise and pollute








  • 8.  RE: Life Cycle Cost Analysis of PV Solar versus Heat Pump

    Posted 01-15-2022 09:28 PM
    Roya:

    Your first consideration is the energy efficiency of the building.  I have lived in a PV powered off-grid house for 26 years that I built to be very efficient with the technology available at the time.  Building technology is better today.  Despite the construction techniques I would do differently today I have found that heat pump technology, which is also dramatically improving in efficiency, very effectively contributes to the heating and cooling of my house. I say "contributes to" because my house also has passive solar features that greatly mitigate heating needs on sunny winter days. An office building is bigger but benefits from a larger volume to surface area ratio.  I see no reason why a well designed and constructed energy efficient building would not be more cost effectively heated and cooled by solar powered heat pump technology than a fossil fueled building.

    ------------------------------
    Joe Schiller
    Professor
    Tennessee Solar Energy Association
    Clarksville
    joeschiller8@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Life Cycle Cost Analysis of PV Solar versus Heat Pump

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 01-12-2022 10:42 AM
    Hi: Yes, well. I caught the phrase, "New building below". SO in essence the old building in its entirety is really out of the equation for thermal anal. The question seems to be, we are going to build a new structure of "X" size, etc.. How should we heat it..??.. 
    Broad stroke: To talk about solar, orientation and access to the sun is everything. You then will want to have the anal between PV, heat pumps or propane (I assume NG is not avail) using your implied choice presented. 
    To be honest, that is a complex anal needing a whole lot of data, for one. Second, is the final choice going to be made on cost be it life cycle or ROI, or is renewable energy use the primary variable? I ask because PV and heat pumps are not mutually exclusive. In fact from my perspective they are symbiotic. But all this is mute without detailed sight info...

    .....Bill

    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    fcfcfc@ptd.net
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Life Cycle Cost Analysis of PV Solar versus Heat Pump

    Posted 01-13-2022 07:49 AM
    Yes, heat pumps and solar PV can be symbiotic - but as a practical matter, only in a situation where you are grid-tied, and have an annual net-metering agreement with your electrical utility.

    With a good heat pump setup, and without significant seasonal variations in electrical usage other than for HVAC, the month-to- month variation in your electrical usage may be only somewhat larger in the winter months than during summer a/c season. But the available sunshine is dramatically less in winter than summer. If you don't own a hydroelectric lake storage system, there is no practical way I know to save significant electricity from summertime production and use it during the winter's short days (and long cold nights). 

    Fortunately for those of us who have grid-tied PV, most electrical utilities these days find their peak demand to be during a/c season. They can tolerate our summertime afternoon peak in PV production - and are reluctantly willing to let us "balance up" with our wintertime (off-peak" for them) need for their electricity.

    ------------------------------
    Hugh Willis
    Old Engrs Never Really Retire
    GREENSBORO, NC
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Life Cycle Cost Analysis of PV Solar versus Heat Pump

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 01-13-2022 10:58 AM
    Edited by william fitch 01-13-2022 11:11 AM
    Yes, but I think is is fairly likely that he is going to be grid tied. By the numbers, there are not too many office buildings out in the middle of nowhere without grid power, so I don't think the limb I was out on was too far. 

    Look, you can throw all the data out there you want. There is never a shortage of that. But again, without knowing his orientation and access, etc.. they are building a new building of which we have absolutely NO IDEA anything about it. They could go Passivhaus. They could go for maximum solar and Green design and maximize publicity for a super green structure. If it is a single story go radiant floors.... on and on.... Unless I missed something, we really know zero as to what they need sqft wise, floor wise, window wise, insulation wise...etc..

    I don't mind playing in the weeds. I can talk solar and energy all day and love it. I just find this discussion premature, given what we know (Or don't) about what they want and what they ARE ABLE (Budget)to do...

    What I do see allot of time, and I very much hope this is not the case here, is the whole building process begins and somewhere after 75% of it is already decided, someone starts to think about solar energy and various other energy choices. Again, hopefully they are thinking about these "things" while the building is still in the primary design phase.

    Solar should not be an after thought.

    As an after thought though, regarding allot of your heat pump concerns, he could go two stage geo-thermal or air. Today, any two stage heat pump pretty much does away with all the temp/humidity issues you speak of. You can put in one big enough to handle the winter load (Full load) and in the Summer AC time, it will run under partial load, allowing longer run time to pull water out, etc.. Todays HP thermostats are pretty sophisticated regarding the finer points of "Air" conditioning.
    Just an FYI:

    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    fcfcfc@ptd.net
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Life Cycle Cost Analysis of PV Solar versus Heat Pump

    Posted 01-13-2022 11:38 AM
    William - I assume you are right and agree with you (unless deep in Amish country) the site is probably grid-tied. I agree completely with your comments, except for two points - 

    (1) I know nothing about the person who posted the original question, except that this one question made no sense. As both you and I recognize, PV solar and the choice of whether or not to use a heat pump (either instead of, or even if coupled with a propane furnace) have essentially nothing to do with each other. We both know they are separable and independent decisions.

    (2) Just being grid-tied is sufficient for the heat pump, but may not be enough for the PV decision. I don't know enough about Public Utility regulations in SE Pennsylvania to know whether net metering is probably available. Without knowing about net metering, along with their tax situation vis-a-vis the solar ITC, there's a lot we don't know about the project, well beyond the physical design aspects you list.

    My main point is, compared to the cost of fuel oil or propane, a heat pump is a real "no-brainer", especially if one assumes the project will include forced air a/c in either case.

    As always, I enjoy your comments Thank you for them.

    Hugh

    ------------------------------
    Hugh Willis
    Old Engrs Never Really Retire
    GREENSBORO, NC
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Life Cycle Cost Analysis of PV Solar versus Heat Pump

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 01-13-2022 02:17 PM
    Edited by william fitch 01-13-2022 02:36 PM
    Yes, we (At the moment) have net meter in PA. Makes a HUGE difference. I have Geo-thermal HP so only have to deal with a single edge sword (Not double) regarding all loads. I am pure electric (No resistance) and solar. No FFI. I burn wood now and then but not for heat. Pure enjoyment. 
    If it were me making a bunch of assumptions about his location, building needs, etc.., good solar access and orientation, I would go Super-Insulated or Passivhaus if you wish, throw a moderate PV array on the roof and a small 2-stage high efficiency HP.  Fresh air xchanger, blah, blah, etc.. Done. But, there is really no info to go on regarding his situation. Its like, "I want to go to the moon. What kind of rocket do you recommend". I see posts like that and I cannot help think, "Solar after thought". Hope I am wrong....

    On the HP PV thing, separate from a costing an engineering perspective. I think of them as being symbiotic from a design perspective regarding the goal of "green-ness". Heat pumps pull RE in the majority. PV pulls only RE. From a design perspective I think it is important to "view" systems not only from a dissected level or vantage point, but from a "wholistic perspective". In short, don't limit your decisions to just playing with the numbers. After all, it is only doing the later that got us to where we are today.

    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    fcfcfc@ptd.net
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Life Cycle Cost Analysis of PV Solar versus Heat Pump

    Posted 01-13-2022 12:00 PM
    William - As regards full winter load and summer a/c sizing, I do have a two-stage heat pump, chosen for just that reason. Still, although carefully sized to just barely meet my home's hot and humid summer a/c needs, it does not quite meet my central NC heating needs on midwinter's coldest darkest nights.

    We are prone to some severe ice storm power outages, so I had elected dual-fuel nat gas, since I can run the furnace and coffee pot with a small generator if necessary. But lately we've not had the really cold nights we used to have, and the furnace hasn't run (except for annual wellness checks) for the last three winters.

    Were I to do it over again, I might give more thought to an air handler with supplemental heater strips instead of the gas furnace, and qualify for the lower "all-electric" rates available to me. (Although natural gas was part of the plan because of the furnace, I had elected a heat pump water heater instead, so that's not an issue).

    Now, if only there were some way I could avoid those pesky monthly connection fees for the gas connection I almost never use. (Sigh ...) The cost of an insurance policy I hope never to use, I suppose.

    Hugh

    ------------------------------
    Hugh Willis
    Old Engrs Never Really Retire
    GREENSBORO, NC
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Life Cycle Cost Analysis of PV Solar versus Heat Pump

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 01-13-2022 12:13 PM
    Thank you all for useful information.
    The question was brought up by our client. The site is on the grid.
    I think I have enough information now. Also we have an engineer on the project, and I will pass this QA comments to him.
    Again thanks a lot.

    ------------------------------
    Roya Taheri
    President
    Taheri Architecture, Inc.
    Philadelphia PA
    rtaheri@taheriarch.com
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Life Cycle Cost Analysis of PV Solar versus Heat Pump

    Posted 01-13-2022 06:44 AM
    Edited by Hugh Willis 01-13-2022 07:20 AM
    PV Solar versus Heat Pump - they are not mutually exclusive alternatives. There's no reason you can't do both, if each one is itself justified on a life cycle basis.
    The relevant life-cycle cost comparison for the heat pump would be between it and the propane furnace. To model the heat pump's performance reasonably accurately requires you to input the typical hourly outdoor temperature (or at least the average daily temperature) for your location during the heating season, because the heat pump's efficiency (Coefficient of Performance, "COP") and heat output both vary significantly with outdoor temperature. But a quick comparison alternative is the operating cost comparison method I discuss below.

    Heat pumps (I assume we're talking about conventional outside air-sourced heat pumps, not "ground-source" - i.e., "geothermal") are ideal in climates where both wintertime heating and summertime (forced air) air conditioning are needed. And the incremental cost of the heat pump above and beyond the cost of an air conditioning system is quite small.
    Today's R134 heat pumps are able to collect some heat from air even below zero, Fahrenheit. Today's typical units provide a COP of about 2.0 at zero degrees outside. In other words, they yield twice as much heat as would the same amount of electricity used to make heat via resistance coils (electric baseboard heat, "heater strips", etc.)

    However, the amount of heat a heat pump can deliver declines pretty much linearly with ambient (outside) temperature. And the building's space heating needs increase pretty much linearly as the outside temperature drops. For a heat pump/air conditioning system appropriately sized for your summertime a/c load, the point at which the heat pump is just barely able to keep up with the wintertime heat demand depends on several factors - how "tight" the building is, how well insulated, how much air exchange there is with traffic into and exiting the building, interior heat sources (lighting, number of occupants, etc.). But as a ballpark answer, a heat pump appropriately sized for summertime a/c cooling in SE Pennsylvania is probably capable of providing enough heat in wintertime down to somewhere around 25 degrees or so outdoors. Below this outdoor temperature, it is necessary either to keep the heat pump running and meet the deficit with supplemental electrical resistance heater strips, or switch to an alternate fuel source, in your case, propane, in a "dual fuel" setup.
    In this way, you minimize your use of expensive propane or electrical resistance heating to only the coldest days, while the incremental initial cost of the (propane-avoiding) heat pump is quite small, assuming you were going to put in summertime forced air a/c in any case.

    Why not just put in a larger heat pump to cover the wintertime demand? Because the biggest mistake in sizing air conditioners is to put in too large a unit. Air "conditioning" requires both cooling the inside air and removing its excess humidity. And a heat pump big enough to keep the building warm on the coldest winter nights in SE Pennsylvania would be much too big for satisfactory summertime cooling. ASHRAE has a comfort chart that shows a range of temperatures judged as comfortable. At lower humidity, higher temperature is comfortable (and vice versa). An oversized a/c (or heat pump unit in a/c mode) will cool the air too quickly, and do a poor job of removing excess moisture, leaving your building prone to cool but swamp-like summertime humidity, mold growth, etc. The Image Permanence Institute (www.dpcalc.org) has a calculator which shows mold risk at a range of temperatures and relative humidity. It says there is low risk of mold at RH under 65%, and low risk of metal corrosion for RH under 55% for temperatures under 80 degrees. However, for human comfort, an even lower RH goal, in the 45 to 50% range, is probably optimal. This requires the a/c system not be oversized - if anything, slightly undersized. At this RH level, most people can be comfortable at around 76-78 degrees. This puts less of a load on the a/c system than needing to cool the building to 72 degrees in summertime, to maintain comfort at a higher RH.
    Multi-stage or variable speed heat pumps, if constrained to use only part of their capacity in normal summertime conditions and full capacity only in winter, can partly compensate for this problem. It is indeed what I chose for my own system. But that adds a level of complexity to the analysis I don't want to get into here.

    Suppose you choose to go "dual fuel" instead of supplementary electrical resistance heater strips for really cold weather? What is the operating cost "balance point" that tells you when to switch from heat pump to propane? You can easily calculate it from your heat pump specs, cost of electricity, furnace efficiency and cost of propane (or natural gas, if available). 
    Natural gas prices are usually expressed per therm; electricity prices per KWh, and propane per gallon. To compare, there are two steps for each - The trick is to convert one to the other set of units, and to consider the efficiency factor (for furnace) or COP (for heat pump), to calculate for either source the cost of the heat (measured in the same units, either KWh or Therms) of heat delivered to the building. You need to remember that KWh is a measure of energy, and can be used to measure either an amount of electrical energy or an amount of heat energy.

    Example: My current cost per KWh of electricity (residential rate in central NC) is $0.09 per KWh. My cost for natural gas (January 2022) is $1.465 per therm. My furnace efficiency is 95%, so my cost per therm of heat delivered into the house is $1.542. This can be converted into its equivalent cost per KWh, using the KWh/therm conversion factor, 29.3. Doing the conversion, the cost of natural gas heat delivered into my house ($1.542/therm)  equals $0.0526 per KWh of heat. So natural gas is cheaper, right? - NO! Not exactly. Remember, the heat pump requires less electricity to run than the amount of heat it moves. The heat pump's "COP" is the ratio of the amount of heat moved (measured in KWh of heat), to the amount of electricity used (measured in KWh of electricity).
    Let's review - My natural gas heat costs me costs $0.0526 per KWh of heat. My heat pump's electricity costs me $0.09. And my heat pump's COP varies according to outdoor temperature. For example, at 20 degrees, its COP is about 2.5. So at 20 degrees my cost of heat into the house, delivered by the heat pump is $0.09 divided by 2.5, or $0.036 per KWH of heat delivered. (At zero degrees outside (COP 2.0), my heat pump costs $0.045 to run, per KWH of heat delivered into the house).

    To summarize, even at zero degrees, the heat pump ($0.045/KWh of heat) is a cheaper source of heat than the natural gas furnace ($0.0526/KWh of heat). And since propane is much more expensive than natural gas, the difference is even greater.
    The problem is, if the heat pump' is appropriately sized for its summertime load, its output at zero degrees - or even at 20 degrees outside - will be inadequate to maintain reasonable indoor temperature. For example, my nominal "3 Ton" heat pump can deliver 36,000 BTU/hr at 50 degrees outdoor ambient, but only 18,000 BTU/hr at 10 degrees. (And varies pretty linearly between these limits). So, although the heat provided by my heat pump is cheaper per therm of heat delivered than my high-efficiency condensing gas furnace even down to zero, it is intentionally sized such that it can only provide enough heat to maintain my house's temperature down to around 18 degrees outside. Below that, I must supplement with electric resistance heating when it is so cold outside the heat pump can't keep up, or switch over to natural gas heat.

    Based on the large difference in operating cost, it is obvious to me the minimum life-cycle cost is obtained by using the heat pump as much as possible. The only question is, do you want to supplement or do you want to switch on those coldest days and nights?

    ------------------------------
    Hugh Willis
    Old Engrs Never Really Retire
    GREENSBORO, NC
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Life Cycle Cost Analysis of PV Solar versus Heat Pump

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 01-13-2022 09:50 AM
    Thanks so much, Hugh, for this excellent explainer!  Love it!
    Dara

    ------------------------------
    Dara Bortman
    Exact Solar
    Yardley PA
    dara@exactsolar.com
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Life Cycle Cost Analysis of PV Solar versus Heat Pump

    Posted 01-13-2022 12:22 PM
    Edited by Hugh Willis 01-13-2022 12:22 PM
    Thank you, Dara

    When it comes to heat pumps for building space heating, people just don't seem able to make the connection to what they already know. Who gives a second thought to air conditioning, and how it pumps heat from the cool indoors to the hot outside? Or the freezer compartment of the refrigerator, its heat pumped out of the compartment at below zero and dumped into the warm kitchen.

    So why would we be surprised to learn that you can pump heat from zero-degree outside air, and put it into your building? And yet, exactly the same process (gas compression and expansion) is used in all three cases.

    Hugh

    ------------------------------
    Hugh Willis
    Old Engrs Never Really Retire
    GREENSBORO, NC
    ------------------------------