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best deal for PV energy going to the grid in northeast ohio ?

  • 1.  best deal for PV energy going to the grid in northeast ohio ?

    Posted 06-11-2024 06:08 AM
    I am helping my church get going with a newly online rooftop PV array.
    We are CEI First Energy customers and get third party electricity from an apples-to-apples provider, who does not credit anything for solar power supplied to the grid.

    Are there any third party electricity providers that do give credit back for kWh's put on the grid by customers?

    FYI, we are getting $0.01/kWh from CEI under credited distribution charges for kWh's we are putting on the grid. The net meter tracks short duration periods (maybe down to the second) of power surplus over what the building is using. So even if on a day basis we produce no net energy beyond what the building needs, we have short duration periods when we do produce more than we are consuming. So the economic benefit is far below the projection done by the PV system seller.

    Thanks for any feedback.
    --  Address:  Allen Wilkinson                       (cell)  (216) 548-2349 1286 Yellowstone Road                 retired NASA Glenn scientist Cleveland Heights, OH 44121  USA      (INTERNET) aw(at)chaff(dot)biz  "It is the thoughts we don't have that get us in life."  +++++++ 


  • 2.  RE: best deal for PV energy going to the grid in northeast ohio ?

    Posted 06-12-2024 11:31 AM

    Allen:  We will be activating a 54kW(DC) solar PV system tomorrow for my church here in Chapel Hill, NC.  It will also be net-metered, and the utility (Duke Energy) credit for any kWhs sent to the grid is about $0.02/kWh when we pay close to $0.10/kWh.  Fortunately, our building electrical load is always greater than our PV system output.  I doubt if you will find any 3rd party provider who will pay one-for-one for extra solar energy.  Thus, I suggest that you consider installing batteries and stay independent of the grid.

    Tom Henkel, 919-593-5510



    ------------------------------
    E. Thomas Henkel
    President, Sustainable Energy Consulting
    Self Employed
    Chapel Hill NC
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: best deal for PV energy going to the grid in northeast ohio ?

    Posted 06-12-2024 11:49 AM
    Thanks for feedback.
    We too over a day will use more energy than our 21kWh DC array will provide. But at any given moment during a day that is not the case. So the grid grabs that energy.

    Batteries are now under consideration, but the initial cost and lifetime are troubling. Li-ion is not an ideal battery except for energy density.

    Thanks to hear your experience, Allen


    On 6/12/24 14:32, E. Thomas Henkel via American Solar Energy Society Inc wrote:
    010001900db940c4-8a2d10b9-e30e-4aff-89ca-de321768ee4e-000000@email.amazonses.com">
    Allen: We will be activating a 54kW(DC) solar PV system tomorrow for my church here in Chapel Hill, NC. It will also be net-metered, and the... -posted to the "Everything Solar Forum" community





  • 4.  RE: best deal for PV energy going to the grid in northeast ohio ?

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 06-12-2024 12:19 PM

    Hi Allen

    We have some things in common! By way of introduction, I grew up in eastern Cleveland and lived in Cleveland Heights (Mayfield Rd near Overlook) while I was going to CWRU. Also I got bit by the solar bug while visiting NASA Glenn Lewis in 1977 with my professor and have been in PV since 1982 at University of Delaware. NASA  staff were testing some solar cells we made. 
    The answer to your question partly depends on whether your church is leasing or own the array. If you owned it, you should be eligible for 1:1 compensation via net metering. I checked and First Energy (who owns CEI) offers net metering as required by your PUCO. But if you lease it then the owner is getting that benefit and only paying you a penny per kWh out of their net meter earning. 
    By going with a third party provider, you are saving on energy and demand charges (I assume) but they have no incentive to offer you a return for injecting your excess green power into the CEI grid. Given that your net export is relatively small you might just want to stay where you are and not enter all new contracts. The benefit would be negligible. 
    Steve 


    ------------------------------
    Steven Hegedus
    Professor and Senior Scientist
    University of Delaware
    Newark Delaware
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: best deal for PV energy going to the grid in northeast ohio ?

    Posted 06-13-2024 12:55 AM
    Steve,
    You perhaps saw my NASA Glenn career also; micro-gravity condensed matter physics and in late years lunar soil mechanics.

    The church does own the PV array, but net metering here is not 1:1. It is the $0.01/kWh I noted. Ohio disincentivizes solar and favors natural gas production.
    Allen


    On 6/12/24 15:20, Steven Hegedus via American Solar Energy Society Inc wrote:
    010001900de560b4-d06dc5a1-be91-49a8-be03-5ba02f9d88d3-000000@email.amazonses.com">
    Hi Allen We have some things in common! By way of introduction, I grew up in eastern Cleveland and lived in Cleveland Heights (Mayfield Rd near... -posted to the "Everything Solar Forum" community





  • 6.  RE: best deal for PV energy going to the grid in northeast ohio ?

    Posted 06-13-2024 09:33 AM

    Allen, Please give me a call at 440-570-5735. My company, AviSun Renewable Energy, located in Hudson Ohio designs and installs commercial and residential solar and if you are in First Energy/Illuminating Company territory by law they need to net meter you. And there are at least several 3rd party generation suppliers that net meter at 1:1 as well, so you should change your supplier.  Call me to discuss when convenient.



    ------------------------------
    Ken Nadsady
    AviSun Renewable Energy
    Hudson OH
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: best deal for PV energy going to the grid in northeast ohio ?

    Posted 06-13-2024 03:10 PM
    Colleagues,
    I am perplexed with the concern regarding disparity between the cost and credit of kWh when your facility is consuming more than your PV System is producing.  My understanding of Net Metering may be antiquated so please correct me if I am wrong.  The reality is the kWh produced are deducted from the kWh consumed.  The meter only sees the difference against which charges the utility rate.  The Illinois utility Ameron makes this calculation once per billing cycle so the overproduction issue is never a factor.  What am I missing? 

    --
    Dennis Garde, AIA, LEED AP
    Turkey mobile +90.505.186.27.85
    O&M Transition Coordinator, Ankara, Turkey
    US mobile: +1.847.624.1983 (What's App)
    405 Stuart Court, Savannah, GA 31405
    Formerly Facility Manager, US State Department
    google: +1.312.772.3720







  • 8.  RE: best deal for PV energy going to the grid in northeast ohio ?

    Posted 06-13-2024 08:12 PM

    @ Dennis:

    Utility meters can measure energy usage (kWh) in both directions, into the customer premises (used) from the grid and out to the grid (exported) from the premises. With solar installed and net metering agreements completed, the utility starts tracking energy usage in each direction, so there are two counters. The total change in each counter during the billing cycle (month) is reflected on the electric bill. So the meter sees the change in both counters, not only the difference. The net usage is a math calculation from those counters.



    ------------------------------
    Ken Nadsady
    AviSun Renewable Energy
    Hudson OH
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: best deal for PV energy going to the grid in northeast ohio ?

    Posted 06-14-2024 07:15 AM
    Ken,

    Thank you for the clarification.  Understood - and of course these meters are sophisticated enough to read the kWh in both directions.  But does it matter?  Unless the Utility is converting the kWh into dollars (low rate credits v high rate usage) the delta is still acceptable to the overproducing customer.

    Put another way, and assuming 100 kWh of overproduction (delta) flowing back to the Utility at $.01 the credit on the monthly bill is $1.00.  This is not ideal but it is acceptable because the system is designed to offset the load, not become a local utility.  Is this how the Utility calculates the monthly bill?

    Cheers

    --
    Dennis Garde, AIA, LEED AP
    Turkey mobile +90.505.186.27.85
    O&M Transition Coordinator, Ankara, Turkey
    US mobile: +1.847.624.1983 (What's App)
    405 Stuart Court, Savannah, GA 31405
    Formerly Facility Manager, US State Department
    google: +1.312.772.3720







  • 10.  RE: best deal for PV energy going to the grid in northeast ohio ?

    Posted 06-14-2024 08:19 AM

    Dennis, I will reply again to Allen with more detail, but no, just because a customer may have a net export during certain billing periods, that does not make them a utility. Ohio law permits the back and forth give and take to and from the grid with the idea being a customer can net their total annual energy use to zero on an annual basis. At the time the interconnection application is submitted, the utility assesses the capacity of the proposed system against the historical usage of the facility, or reviews any other supporting details (such as an anticipated increase in future usage due to a building addition or a newly purchased electric vehicle, etc) to approve or deny the application. And the application includes estimates of expected export.



    ------------------------------
    Ken Nadsady
    AviSun Renewable Energy
    Hudson OH
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: best deal for PV energy going to the grid in northeast ohio ?

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 06-17-2024 04:27 PM
      |   view attached

    I have a net metering agreement with CEI and I'm residential, so this may not be entirely relevant, but FWIW, here's a copy of my May, 2024 bill with personal info redacted.  Note my energy supplier is through NOPEC; CEI provides delivery.  



    ------------------------------
    Mike Curran
    Retired EE
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: best deal for PV energy going to the grid in northeast ohio ?

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 06-18-2024 10:15 AM

    OMG! That .jpg data representation is visually torture!! ...lol..

    Here is a graph screen shot of my usage for the past 34 days or so. Take note that the "Y" axis scale varies from delivered to received to usage...

    In "Text", this is my "billing page".



    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: best deal for PV energy going to the grid in northeast ohio ?

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 06-18-2024 11:47 AM

    Sorry about that.  Partly my fault for a poor screenshot, but mostly it's just the format my power delivery service (CEI) uses.  I posted because it should resemble the OP's, and hoped it might give him some insight into how a net metered account billing would look.  He has the same deliverer as I do.



    ------------------------------
    Mike Curran
    Retired EE
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: best deal for PV energy going to the grid in northeast ohio ?

    Posted 06-18-2024 04:18 PM
    Mike,
    Thanks for sharing the utility statement.  As William suggests the graphics are interesting.  The line item on the statement, what is the "Bank?"  How does it work?  Does it zero out?  Do you risk losing it?
    Thanks

    --
    Dennis Garde, AIA, LEED AP
    Turkey mobile +90.505.186.27.85
    O&M Transition Coordinator, Ankara, Turkey
    US mobile: +1.847.624.1983 (What's App)
    405 Stuart Court, Savannah, GA 31405
    Formerly Facility Manager, US State Department
    google: +1.312.772.3720







  • 15.  RE: best deal for PV energy going to the grid in northeast ohio ?

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 06-18-2024 05:00 PM

    Dennis - Your question regarding the "bank" should be directed to William Fitch, since his statement has that terminology, not mine.  To be honest, to me my bill statement is pretty cryptic, and I can see why the OP is having a hard time getting our supplier to explain his net metering agreement.  In hindsight I may have muddied the waters rather than clarified them!

    I will say that each month's credit applies to the succeeding month's billing.  I've never had a credit at year end (November and December turn cloudy here) but if I did I suspect I'd either lose it or get issued a check - nothing carries over to the following year. 

    It's been awhile since I got the net metering permit but I think one of the conditions was that my annual output not exceed my use - I cannot be a net generator over the course of a year.  Ken Naksady may have a better idea about that, though.



    ------------------------------
    Mike Curran
    Retired EE
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: best deal for PV energy going to the grid in northeast ohio ?

    Posted 06-19-2024 06:39 AM
    Mike, William, & Ken,

    A collective thanks for the details and the explanations.  Good Copy...  The bottom line is that every utility, perhaps a hundred plus across the country, have their own contracts relative to grid-tide renewables - so buyer beware.

    Thanks due as well to this forum for existing as it does.  I feel like it is a chat with new (old) friends every time I read a posting or write-in.

    Stay healthy and keep those panels clean.

    Dennis Garde, AIA, LEED AP
    Turkey mobile +90.505.186.27.85
    O&M Transition Coordinator, Ankara, Turkey
    US mobile: +1.847.624.1983 (What's App)
    405 Stuart Court, Savannah, GA 31405
    Formerly Facility Manager, US State Department
    google: +1.312.772.3720







  • 17.  RE: best deal for PV energy going to the grid in northeast ohio ?

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 06-18-2024 07:59 PM

    Hi: All these net metering "programs" have their variances. The idea is that the power companies have to pay the small generators for their power. In PA where I am from, my supplier PPL saves up the over production each month and the accumulated power (If existing) gets paid at the end of their MAY billing period, and resets the "Bank" to zero. The "Bank" is simply the gross held over production at any given moment. 

    When you are not over producing at any time of the year, the over production will be "used up" first for a billing cycle that uses power from the grid. In short the Bank gets hit first. If the Bank is zero and you use energy at the end of the month, you pay in the immediate any difference between production and usage.

    Pretty simple really.... I am sure you get the idea, but there are variances from utility to utility.



    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: best deal for PV energy going to the grid in northeast ohio ?

    Posted 06-14-2024 06:31 AM
    What I think you are missing is Ohio has a different approach to net metering.

    On 6/13/24 18:11, Dennis Garde via American Solar Energy Society Inc wrote:
    0100019013a83cb7-f71be72d-a730-4b69-825b-d4595e991199-000000@email.amazonses.com">
    Colleagues,I am perplexed with the concern regarding disparity between the cost and credit of kWh when your facility is consuming more than your... -posted to the "Everything Solar Forum" community





  • 19.  RE: best deal for PV energy going to the grid in northeast ohio ?

    Posted 06-14-2024 08:57 AM

    @Allen:

    "What I think you are missing is Ohio has a different approach to net metering."

    The Ohio revised code covering net metering is inserted below. It is complicated by other rulings made by the PUCO that are contained in the Ohio Administrative Code. What I have seen is that the net metering calculation is not applied the same across all public utilities. Some seem to abide by the original ORC where all energy usage is net metered as kWh units that either reduce the per kWh charges or carry forward as a kWh credit on the bill. Other utilities convert the kWh credit to a dollar credit that is based on the Standard Service Offer (cost per kWh) of the utility at the time.  To further complicate things, commercial, institutional, and industrial customers are often on rate plans that include demand charges and reactive power charges. As I said before, if you send me a copy of the Church's electric bill, I can verify if CEI is obeying the law or if there is some mistake going on. It would be most helpful to see at least two consecutive bills, that would show a net export carried forward to the next month, but if they do not have net export, then just sending a few bills that show some export is ok.  It will also tell me what rate they were assigned and whether there are demand charges on the bill as well as energy charges.

    4928.67

    (A)(1) Except as provided in division (A)(2) of this section, an electric utility shall develop a standard contract or tariff providing for net metering.

    That contract or tariff shall be identical in rate structure, all retail rate components, and any monthly charges to the contract or tariff to which the same customer would be assigned if that customer were not a customer-generator.

    (2) An electric utility shall also develop a separate standard contract or tariff providing for net metering for a hospital, as defined in section 3701.01 of the Revised Code, that is also a customer-generator, subject to all of the following:

    (a) No limitation, including that in divisions (A)(31)(a) and (d) of section 4928.01 of the Revised Code, shall apply regarding the availability of the contract or tariff to such hospital customer-generators.

    (b) The contract or tariff shall be based both upon the rate structure, rate components, and any charges to which the hospital would otherwise be assigned if the hospital were not a customer-generator and upon the market value of the customer-generated electricity at the time it is generated.

    (c) The contract or tariff shall allow the hospital customer-generator to operate its electric generating facilities individually or collectively without any wattage limitation on size.

    (B)(1) Net metering under this section shall be accomplished using a single meter capable of registering the flow of electricity in each direction. If its existing electrical meter is not capable of measuring the flow of electricity in two directions, the customer-generator shall be responsible for all expenses involved in purchasing and installing a meter that is capable of measuring electricity flow in two directions.

    (2) The electric utility, at its own expense and with the written consent of the customer-generator, may install one or more additional meters to monitor the flow of electricity in each direction.

    (3) Consistent with the other provisions of this section, the measurement of net electricity supplied or generated shall be calculated in the following manner:

    (a) The electric utility shall measure the net electricity produced or consumed during the billing period, in accordance with normal metering practices.

    (b) If the electricity supplied by the electric utility exceeds the electricity generated by the customer-generator and fed back to the utility during the billing period, the customer-generator shall be billed for the net electricity supplied by the utility, in accordance with normal metering practices. If electricity is provided to the utility, the credits for that electricity shall appear in the next billing cycle.

    (4) A net metering system used by a customer-generator shall meet all applicable safety and performance standards established by the national electrical code, the institute of electrical and electronics engineers, and underwriters laboratories.

    (C) The public utilities commission shall adopt rules relating to additional control and testing requirements for customer-generators that the commission determines are necessary to protect public and worker safety and system reliability.

    (D) An electric utility shall not require a customer-generator whose net metering system meets the standards and requirements provided for in divisions (B)(4) and (C) of this section to do any of the following:

    (1) Comply with additional safety or performance standards;

    (2) Perform or pay for additional tests;

    (3) Purchase additional liability insurance.



    ------------------------------
    Ken Nadsady
    AviSun Renewable Energy
    Hudson OH
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: best deal for PV energy going to the grid in northeast ohio ?

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 06-18-2024 10:21 AM

    What you are missing in Ohio is a decent Governor, for starters....



    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: best deal for PV energy going to the grid in northeast ohio ?

    Posted 06-26-2024 07:50 AM

    So just posting this follow-up in case others read this thread and are confused about net metering here in Ohio, and possibly other regions.  The OP was concerned that their church was not getting net metered at a fair rate. I took a look at a few electric bills they provided and did some analysis. The church is getting net metered at the full retail rate, but you cannot see that by looking at the bill, unfortunately. Transparency in electric billing is an area that needs a LOT of improvement, at least here in Ohio.

    The reason this is such a complicated issue is that the utility does not transparently convey on the bill the detail of how all the different tariffs that comprise the many different charges to the customer are calculated, and which are related to energy (kWh), which are related to peak demand (kW), which are related to reactive power (kvar), and taxes, etc.  In this case, the components that are related to demand make up the majority of the bill total, by far, since this is a commercial building with general service rate. Residential rates in Ohio are generally just based on energy usage(kWh), with no demand components.

    To make things worse, the 15 or so tariff components that contribute to the bill can change over time as the utility files requests with the PUCO. So even if you read through the published rate tariff documents that are publicly available and create a complex excel worksheet to calculate the charges attributed to energy, demand, reactive power, etc (I have done this), you need to stay on top of the constantly changing tariffs details for it to remain accurate over time.

    First Energy does provide access to a web calculator that will provide the detailed electric charges breakdown, which is what I used in this case to determine that the church was indeed getting retail net metered. Just Google "First Energy Rate Calculator". Unfortunately, it is clunky to use and still a very complicated process, and you really need to have an understanding of electric rate and tariff terminology and principles to make sense of it all.

    I just wanted to close the loop on the idea that Ohio uses some really twisted way of net metering. It is not transparent for sure, but the issue is more about how the utilities convince oversight organizations like the PUCO to approve rate tariffs that penalize demand far more than energy usage. Another thing that should change in today's world is that energy usage should be progressively charged, i.e. the more you use the more it costs, not regressively charged as it often is. This would encourage efficiency.

    -Ken



    ------------------------------
    Ken Nadsady
    AviSun Renewable Energy
    Hudson OH
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: best deal for PV energy going to the grid in northeast ohio ?

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 06-26-2024 08:59 AM

    Thanks Ken!  My residential bill is cryptic so I can't imagine how hard FE's commercial bills are to read.



    ------------------------------
    Mike Curran
    Retired EE
    ------------------------------