Everything Solar Forum

WOW. Did you open up a can of worms. If I give this the "full picture" it needs, it is going to be long. 

Oh well, here goes. Lets have Sherman set the way back machine to when PV really started to hit the market. Lets go with the early 2000's. NJ was the first state to start offering SREC's, I believe in 2004. 

During these early days, solar Federal rebates were only offered to GRID-Tie systems, NOT OFF GRID! Imagine that. Why would that be? 

More history here. The real reason the PV grid tie and SREC "thing" was started (You are going to love this) was the utilities!! What. But they are now trying to slow it down and fight homeowner systems!? To understand that appeared paradox, you have to understand the interaction between a power generator, the GRID entity (Sounds like TRON) and the customer load. PJM (Pennsylvania, Jersey, Maryland grid provider) controls the grid for a large portion of the North East USA. I am under them. 

Any one who wants can build a power plant. Gen as much power as they want to. SO what. How are you going to get it to the customers?  Oh wait. You have to get permission to get on the electric super highway system, called the grid, controlled by various grid providers throughout the country. AND if you are a power plant and associated labeled utility, you have to PAY THE GRID PROVIDER for every KWH you transport over THEIR GRID! Wait. Did he say the utility has to pay!? Ya, I did. And the payment curve is not linear. There are sweet spots in terms of power transmitted associated when you gen them. Sometimes the utility gets a great deal from the GP's. And sometimes the GP's will take them to the cleaners. One of those "get raped" times is hot weather during the daytime when the loads are high. The utility could pay $1 per KWH for each KWH it put on the grid!! Yes $1 KWH!!

SO, going back to NJ. They (The utilities) were getting hammered and paying these super high rates during peak AC Summer times to the GP's (PJM). SO some sharp people with math skills figured they could create a distributed power system (Customer load entities) to put PV on their roofs which coincidentally was during peak solar times, to knock down the load on PJM From them (The utility) and do it cheaper then the super high rates they were paying PJM. This worked ONLY during the super steep curve part of their (Utility) fee to PJM. As their load decreased, the rate got better until you hit a unity point, that point when the cost of these RE distributed systems, equaled the cost they were paying PJM. Hope I have not lost you here...

SO to keep this shorter than a book, once enough distributed PV got on roof's to bring it down to the unity point, the benefit to the utility ceased. But, a funny thing happened on the way to the ZOO. People found out they liked genning their own power. It was really cool and saved them money. Oh wait, the utility was supposed to be able to keep that Genie in the bottle, under control. You know the cardinal rule is you never grant the Genie's wish of freedom. Bad Idea. I mean if the people started really liking genning their own power, what happens to the demand the utility charges for? It goes by, by!! OH NO!! Demand destruction!! What did we DO!! We got to get this under control. 

OK, I admit I am having way to much fun with the sarcasm. Writer's prerogative. 

SO anyway, my point in sharing this history is that the utilities, at THIS POINT IN demand destruction panic mode, are probably not going to be enticed to throw you a life line, any more that the oil companies are going to throw RE and EV producers an invite to their next profit party. 

Backing out and looking at the big picture here, it has NEVER been a pleasure party getting contractors to home owners to work on their infrastructure issues. Take your pick. Electrical, plumbing, HVAC, refrigeration, roof leaks, etc.. In my experience it is pretty much a nightmare 90% of the time. Why should stand alone PV (Power) be any different. 

I don't have a magic pill for you. All you can do is try to stay with a single entity to cover as much as possible so there is less wiggle room and 180 degree finger pointing. Or, become a power expert in you own system, and throw the finger to them, except in able to prove hardware failure issues warranty applies. 

This is one of those areas (Off grid) that some off grider's high on what ever, try to paint a panacea of producing your own power, off grid. How does it go. The grass always look's greener on the other side of the fence. Buyer beware....Off grid IS NOT A panacea.

Thanks for commenting.  I am in the fortunate situation where my power provider is a COOP.  So technically I am sort of an owner that gets to participate in how it is run (primarily by electing board members).  It also means that it is supposed to be non-profit and should not be warped by trying to maximize profit or appease share holders.  Their own regs say they are to "promote the use of cost effective renewable resources" and "develop cost effective demand side programs".  I probably interpret those two things differently than "The Board".  Since I think people would pay MORE than the going price of private companies doing solar installs to have the COOP install it (and maintain it), it seems like it could be cost effective both for the COOP and for the "generator-owner" of the installed PV system.  It also could provide a cheap source of clean green new power if needed (its rural, so I'm not sure if demand is going up or down but assume eventually it will go up).  It also makes everything covered by one entity.  And the COOP could make sure it really is done to meet their requirements (in the current system inspections seem suspect to me...as it is hard to tell what is really done in a short visit on a completed system).  They would also have economies of scale.  Even though the individual projects would be separate, the basic components (panels, inverters etc.) could be acquired in bulk.  Still seems like a good idea all around.  They do have a very low limit to net metering (0.5%) of COOPs single hour peak load, which probably has something to do with what you were talking about (that I don't really understand but seems messed up).  Should I bring it up at the COOP annual meeting, or is it hopeless.

P.S. You are absolutely right about not easy to get any trade type folks to come work on your little project 100 miles from town.  I wish I was handy...like an old time farmer/rancher.

WOW. Did you open up a can of worms. If I give this the "full picture" it needs, it is going to be long. 

Oh well, here goes. Lets have Sherman set the way back machine to when PV really started to hit the market. Lets go with the early 2000's. NJ was the first state to start offering SREC's, I believe in 2004. 

During these early days, solar Federal rebates were only offered to GRID-Tie systems, NOT OFF GRID! Imagine that. Why would that be? 

More history here. The real reason the PV grid tie and SREC "thing" was started (You are going to love this) was the utilities!! What. But they are now trying to slow it down and fight homeowner systems!? To understand that appeared paradox, you have to understand the interaction between a power generator, the GRID entity (Sounds like TRON) and the customer load. PJM (Pennsylvania, Jersey, Maryland grid provider) controls the grid for a large portion of the North East USA. I am under them. 

Any one who wants can build a power plant. Gen as much power as they want to. SO what. How are you going to get it to the customers?  Oh wait. You have to get permission to get on the electric super highway system, called the grid, controlled by various grid providers throughout the country. AND if you are a power plant and associated labeled utility, you have to PAY THE GRID PROVIDER for every KWH you transport over THEIR GRID! Wait. Did he say the utility has to pay!? Ya, I did. And the payment curve is not linear. There are sweet spots in terms of power transmitted associated when you gen them. Sometimes the utility gets a great deal from the GP's. And sometimes the GP's will take them to the cleaners. One of those "get raped" times is hot weather during the daytime when the loads are high. The utility could pay $1 per KWH for each KWH it put on the grid!! Yes $1 KWH!!

SO, going back to NJ. They (The utilities) were getting hammered and paying these super high rates during peak AC Summer times to the GP's (PJM). SO some sharp people with math skills figured they could create a distributed power system (Customer load entities) to put PV on their roofs which coincidentally was during peak solar times, to knock down the load on PJM From them (The utility) and do it cheaper then the super high rates they were paying PJM. This worked ONLY during the super steep curve part of their (Utility) fee to PJM. As their load decreased, the rate got better until you hit a unity point, that point when the cost of these RE distributed systems, equaled the cost they were paying PJM. Hope I have not lost you here...

SO to keep this shorter than a book, once enough distributed PV got on roof's to bring it down to the unity point, the benefit to the utility ceased. But, a funny thing happened on the way to the ZOO. People found out they liked genning their own power. It was really cool and saved them money. Oh wait, the utility was supposed to be able to keep that Genie in the bottle, under control. You know the cardinal rule is you never grant the Genie's wish of freedom. Bad Idea. I mean if the people started really liking genning their own power, what happens to the demand the utility charges for? It goes by, by!! OH NO!! Demand destruction!! What did we DO!! We got to get this under control. 

OK, I admit I am having way to much fun with the sarcasm. Writer's prerogative. 

SO anyway, my point in sharing this history is that the utilities, at THIS POINT IN demand destruction panic mode, are probably not going to be enticed to throw you a life line, any more that the oil companies are going to throw RE and EV producers an invite to their next profit party. 

Backing out and looking at the big picture here, it has NEVER been a pleasure party getting contractors to home owners to work on their infrastructure issues. Take your pick. Electrical, plumbing, HVAC, refrigeration, roof leaks, etc.. In my experience it is pretty much a nightmare 90% of the time. Why should stand alone PV (Power) be any different. 

I don't have a magic pill for you. All you can do is try to stay with a single entity to cover as much as possible so there is less wiggle room and 180 degree finger pointing. Or, become a power expert in you own system, and throw the finger to them, except in able to prove hardware failure issues warranty applies. 

This is one of those areas (Off grid) that some off grider's high on what ever, try to paint a panacea of producing your own power, off grid. How does it go. The grass always look's greener on the other side of the fence. Buyer beware....Off grid IS NOT A panacea.

I suspect the companies are reticent to commit to supporting the O&M of a system that they did not personally install. This would be especially true to utilities for whom residential solar installation is not a part of their core business model or competencies.

-Rich