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EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

  • 1.  EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 11-24-2022 08:48 AM
    Edited by william fitch 12-05-2022 11:32 AM
    NOTE: This is a front end edit.
    This thread seems to have sprawled out a whole bunch of connected (Electrical Pun intended) issues relating to the "start on" article, which BTW is great to see.

    I think when it comes to RE as well as allot of major issues today, there are separate but connected logics and concerns that permeate the entire cluster. You have the "raw" engineering possibles with its new opportunities, being incorporated into and balancing with existing best practices and standards.

    The personal desires and social objectives that range from environmental consciousness, equity and just doing the right thing, independent of any particular social "sect" or hierarchy.

    Bridging across those two "platforms" are the, for lack of a better phrase, the political objectives that really always come down to two elements, power (non electron kind) and or adoption rate and percentages (Population oriented).

    Specifically in the case of RE, adoption rate and percentage is huge by itself, if for no other reason than Nature could give a S**T about any of man's other concerns. Change and you get to live. Don't change and die. Most would agree that the choice is pretty clean cut and simple, at least on the understanding end. 

    As to the barriers blocking, mucking up and diverting our course and velocity in this pursuit, I will refrain at this time indulging in such (Ah, a sigh of relief). 

    To summarize I guess, it probably goes to everyone's better sanity if we can differentiate the specific goal, solutions and capabilities for enabling these adoptions and changes to bring greater clarity and understanding to the 'where we are' and the 'where we want to get to' objectives and time line.

    TFTD #121   "Clarity of thought is more important than intelligence".

    End edit:

    Now original post content:

    I recently wrote an article:

    https://fcfcfcwearesolar.blogspot.com/2022/11/reality-ev.html

    It is a personal charging experience I recently had. EV and solar go hand in hand, one being clean production, the other clean load. They are not Siamese twins yet, but more and more so, as it should be. I often wonder aside from the "industry" extruded, and sterilized articles for mainstream consumption about RE and EV, what the real world is for people charging their EV's under god knows what conditions. This was one such experience wrapped in a cool evening's entertainment up North from me.

    Would like to know if any of you have had such occasions, FACTUALY based, that you would not mind sharing, to get a better handle on the actual real world reality of this important clean energy use.

    PS: Happy Turkey day!!!

    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    ------------------------------​


  • 2.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Posted 11-25-2022 12:16 PM
    Just this week I came across the first BI-DIRECTIONAL inverter here in the USA.  Wish I would have printed out the maker/make/model, but with thanksgiving company, I just didn't.... At any rate, it can use your EV to both POWER the house and use the house to charge the car depending (obviously) on the time of day. If I can locate the info, I'll come back here and post it.... but just wanted to let folks know that IT HAS ARRIVED and IS available now from at least ONE vendor....

    ------------------------------
    Joe Utasi
    PV Solar Consultant
    Cinci Home Solar, Keowee Home Solar, DIY Solar Helper
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 11-25-2022 06:49 PM
    Hey thanks!! I have been keeping my eye on the V2X market as an "addition" to my normal backup power solution. When one becomes available and will work with my already existing backup solution, if it is reasonably priced, I will replace my Clipper Creek Level II with it. Take advantage of the door swinging both ways....

    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Posted 11-25-2022 03:29 PM
    Yes I most often charge on Solar.  We have enough PV on the house to power both the home and both plug in cars.   I typically back off the charging amps to about 20 to better match the solar gain with charging.  Then in Asheville NC and in ORNL in Knoxville I have charged on solar canopies they have open to the public.  I agree they are good compliments to each other.


    ------------------------------
    David Hrivnak
    Sales/Engineering
    EcoLogical (part time)
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 11-25-2022 06:53 PM
    Nice photo....

    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Posted 11-27-2022 08:06 AM
    Again good points from Mr Fitch, got me reading this thing every day now.  How much are automakers invested in oil wells?  I'm not sure, but it seems to be more of the same, a conflict of interest, to have Tesla own the charging stations and the EV tech, or Kia, or whatever other horizontal integrations.  Your experience reminds me of a famous quote from William Gibson about the future already being here, just not evenly distributed. 

    A big reason I see emerging for uneven distribution of the benefits of technology is proprietary tech, in everything from my pocket tracking device, I mean smartphone, to fueling a vehicle.  All the technical detail you go into in your blog piece... all so Joe Sixpack (of non-A beer since he's driving) doesn't have to think about technicalities?  Just plug-and-play?  Until you get stranded at a charging station on the phone with tech support. 

    What if you didn't have access to digital payments, or even a phone?  To me, something doesn't work if it doesn't work under those conditions.  Just a 3-ton expensive lithium brick.  Stranded on the roadside, you'd think the benefit of an EV is you can plug it in anywhere?  Idk much from my experiences, with diesel trucks and an electric motorcycle.  My motorcycle charges on any 120V outlet, with a standard D-cable like you plug into your computer monitor.  It can blow a 20-amp circuit if I'm running power tools on the same circuit.  It has a nominal range of 140 miles, but the way I ride, call it 100. 

    My bike gets a full charge in under 5 hours, so that's about 20 miles of charge per hour, on average.  As long as you're in the suburbs somewhere, there are outlets everywhere on commercial properties, often at the bottom of lamp posts in parking lots, and anyone who has had any interest in me plugging in somewhere has always just been interested in the bike.  I've only ever asked permission maybe a handful of times.  I'd love to just pass someone a $5 bill and be on my way in the future. 

    I think I mentioned this in a reply to you in another thread, but the whole thing smacks of needing to update the firmware on my toothbrush or whatever.  If it doesn't brush my teeth without wi-fi, it's not a frigging toothbrush.  I see the issue of proprietary tech in charging infrastructure to be closely linked to the issue of data mining and over-reliance on telemetry in everything now.  I don't want my toothbrush to tell J&J about how many times a day and at what times a day I'm brushing, because they really don't need to know in order for me to brush my teeth, therefore it's none of their business. 

    By monetizing data, Tesla and others are incentivized to track users and harvest their personal data in ways that we haven't even considered as potentially harmful yet.  Everyone wants to create a state of vendor lock, and they'll relentlessly hound you into it.  Open source technologies that can be shared across vendors, brands, carmakers, interstate commerce, etc, is in everyone's interest if we're actually sincere about deploying this technology at a scale that will make a difference to global emissions of CO2.  
     ^...^
    <_* *_>  
      \_/
           
    Cleverly engineered, naturally efficient.





  • 7.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 11-27-2022 10:27 AM
    Edited by william fitch 11-27-2022 10:47 AM
    Once again you have ignited our entire human reality by censoring just the right concepts in the human spider web. Everything you mention and call attention to is all tied to the currency construct, not just in it's "mechanical" perspective functioning, but the very thinking and perception of our entire society, globally. Currency ceased to be a benefit for man, once we had the knowledge and all its associations to the physical world, to provide a quality base of life for ALL people, which we do. Now its only purpose is to enslave man and his biological development and more importantly his advancement into his higher brain capabilities and functions (Empathy, compassion and equality).
    The technology infusement you speak of into all things real, allows the subscription model to replace the idea of real ownership. Under subscription, one never has control of what they paid for, but allows recurring mandated cash flow to be alive, the desired "golden egg" of business models. As a side note, the dripping irony of infringement on the real conservative construct of free market capitalism, that being the blabbering over the decades about freedom from government (Bathtub drowning) and the right of personal ownership completely severed from the state, now being championed by the CW (Concentrated Wealth) interests yelling CAPITALISM is god, using conscripts that are the very antithesis of their preachment.
    It just doesn't get any better.
    Anyway, I digress a bit. Our world and the way we have created it is so deprived and screwed up as to what it could be under a different paradigm. Man as himself has not progressed at all. Any quick look at any spot on the globe will bear this out indisputably (Think Ukraine for just one). Of course stating such, will bring all the global poverty statisticians out of the woodwork touting longevity, infant mortality, hunger, etc.. via numerical averages and convenient correlational "moments", all while ignoring the horrific realities that line up in droves under qualitative and epistemological results, only espousing and favoring the quantitative column as "real". Math. 
    The Freedom/Totalitarian clock construct I created that I sometimes write about, Pure Freedom at noon, Totalitarianism/Fascism at 6'oclock, the extreme Left at 9'oclock and the extreme Right at 3'oclock, mandates that as each world view moves from pure freedom at noon in their chosen directions (3 or 9), if either one or both push the extremes enough, all roads lead to the bottom, the home that has been visited way to often in history past. We are globally well on our way to visiting that home again, maybe for the last time. Currency as god is our compass in this quest for our lower brain, for it now over rides all else., when it comes to actionable items.
    Merry Xmas and let the sun shine....

    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Posted 12-04-2022 03:11 AM
    Mr. William Fitch,

    Once again your comments are both technically astute and thought provoking.  But your latest rant is a head scratcher and a peek behind the curtain.  I hasten to add apologies for my lack of understanding your position for all the issues (socio-economic?) you mention.  I'm not quite able to read between the lines.  To be more conciliatory, I think a long conversation, over dinner and drinks, perhaps several dinners and many drinks, would bear fruit such that we would find continental-sized common ground.

    I will add this bit of trivia for your consideration of our global condition.  The world population has reached 8 billion.  Only one decade ago in 2010 the population was 7 billion.  It is frightening to imagine where we will be in another decade or two?  Some say mankind's origins began 50 thousand years ago, some say 100 thousand, some argue 250 thousand years.  Take your pick - it matters not.  The real impact statistically and physically and socio-economically and politically is the fact that today, eight out of ten (80%) of all the humans that have lived on this planet since the beginning of mankind are alive today.  This is the harsh and unavoidable reality, "the inconvenient truth," we must face.  EVERY regional conflict, energy shortage, water emergency, mass refugee movement, pandemic, natural disaster, famine, etc. are magnified 100-fold directly by the pressures of overpopulation.

    In 1960 the population was at 3 billion.  In 1975 we reached 4 billion.  By most accounts this was a sustainable population, albeit the maximum, that could feed itself without consuming natural resources beyond the capacity to replenish those resources.  Technology is not the primary solution.  However, I do not diminish the technical advancements referenced and detailed conversations within this forum.  I too want to be part of the solution.  And I realize preaching to this choir is slightly more than hearing the smiling echo.  But any discussion about a sustainable planet that does not include the realization of overpopulation is simply folly.  And until we elevate the thinking and perspective of Greta Thunberg over Elon Musk we do not have a chance.

    ------------------------------
    [Dennis] [Garde AIA, LEED AP]
    [OMTC, NEC Ankara, Turkey]
    [US Dept. of State / OBO]
    [Savannah] [GA]
    [Dennis.Garde@gmail.com]
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 12-04-2022 10:46 AM
    Edited by william fitch 12-04-2022 10:58 AM
    Oh Boy. You would need a whole lot of food and stronger than beer alcohol to head down that road. I would probably end up giving you a head ache, but your kind remarks or echo smiles if you like, are more than generous.
    Population is existence (For us) and population is both the solution and problem. 

    I suppose when you try to have "conversations" like this, they end up sounding like a rant much in the same way telling someone about yourself, can wind up sounding like a resume. Such is never my intension.
    Being blunt, my views have never followed someone else's carvings in the landscape. I have never revered or idolized anyone to a level where one might call it,  "awe". Respect, admiration, commonality, sure, but not the former three letters. 
    A commonly known quote by Sci-fi writer Arthur C Clarke:

    "One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion. So now people assume that religion and morality have a necessary connection. But the basis of morality is really very simple and doesn't require religion at all."

    Now, this person is self defined as a atheist (I will use God does not exist for def here). 
    My response to that excellent ringing true quote would be this:

    Atheism is logically untenable (Goes to author of the above quote, Irony).
    The real connection of note he omits is, "What does God have to do with ANY organized Religion?

    That latter line of course could be the new tag line for the ARS (American Religious Society)/s.
    I am sure todays PC (Politically Correct on steroids) crowd given his atheist self proclamation would just say his quote reflects his disdain for God and religion. Of course that same crowd also calls someone commenting slightly negative on an individuals evening outfit as hate speech. 

    I don't want to run long here, no food or drink (You suggest, you pay) but I write thoughts for the day (TFTD) usually short. I often think how many times on mainstream media I hear XYZ "newscaster" saying, "Our renowned Mr. Jones claims that, "Blah, blah, blah (Sorry Greta) words of wisdom"". 
    TFTD# 136.     "Notoriety allows common sense protestations to be viewed as genius."

    Enjoy your hopefully sunny day. As they say:
    "The Solution comes up every morning". (ASES)





    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Posted 11-28-2022 08:18 AM
    William,

    Sorry about your bad experience finding/using a charger (or in your case, chargers) for your EV.  I have not had such problems with my Tesla Model 3 as I have found very few of the available Tesla Superchargers to be unavailable/out of order when I need them (and the Tesla app alerts drivers how many of their Superchargers are available at each site).  I have never tried using a DC fast charger other than the Tesla Superchargers, so I have no experience with them (but I've heard/read of many horror stories like yours).  Most of the time we charge the Model 3 at home.  I used to try to time the charging to take advantage of our 8.2 Kw solar panel array (mostly because it was kind of fun!), but since the incremental price of using grid electricity versus "free" solar power (i.e. not getting paid for the energy that I instead use to charge the car) is only $0.03 per Kwhr I usually just charge it whenever it needs it now.  By the way, I live in the Texas Hill Country, just NW of San Antonio, and our electricity provider is a cooperative.  One final word, I always check out my routes ahead of time to see if we can make it on our charge between Superchargers, and if not I avoid the drive.  Because of that I have never found myself in a situation such as you describe.  However, every year there are more and more DC fast charging stations and the technology and reliability continue to improve, so I'm sure that situations such as you describe will become more and more a thing of the past.  

    Glenn Nichols





  • 11.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 11-28-2022 09:11 AM
    Edited by william fitch 11-30-2022 11:22 AM
    "so I'm sure that situations such as you describe will become more and more a thing of the past.  "
    Hopefully....

    Tesla having developed the charging infrastructure for what they sell, has an automatic and directly rewarded bias for low incident negatives. In essence, the infrastructure is just part of the sales product.
    And yes, charging with your own gen'ed solar energy is a blast!!


    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 11-30-2022 10:33 AM
    Hi
    Good discussion here. I have two comments to add.
    1. Yes, charging your EV from local or dedicated solar array is a goal for many.  I have a Solar Edge Energy Hub (smart inverter+EV charger+battery back-up) installed at my research lab at the University of Delaware. I have a 5 kW array, 3.8 kW inverter, and 10 kWh battery. Some observations follow. The EV will not charge if the grid is down even if there is enough sunlight and battery capacity.  Another weakness is that even if there is excess DC capacity from the array the (5-3.8 kW=1.2 kW for several hours a day in summer) the EV is still only charged at the AC limited power. The excess DC is not directed to the EV. This is a waste to me but that's the way Solar Edge designed it.  Typically EV's that have plugged in need 7-8 kW power for 3 hrs. So you might want to consider looking carefully at the AC vs DC charging of your system if you want to be adding an EV load. Maybe there are some home chargers out there that will take the DC directly from the array.
    2. Second item is Tesla is not the only company with customer-only charging. Some EV charging companies selling commercial charging infrastructure will try to get contracts from the state to install and maintain all the public chargers needed. The state might like it because it relieves them of a lot of responsibility while still providing EV infrastructure. But just like Tesla, you have to be a customer of these companies. As many EV owners are finding, they might pull up at a charging site they found on their app only to find it requires them to be a paid member. The diffference between this and Tesla is that any car can charge at the site once they sign up with that company.

    ------------------------------
    Steven Hegedus
    Professor and Senior Scientist
    University of Delaware
    Newark Delaware
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 11-30-2022 11:10 AM
    "The EV will not charge if the grid is down even if there is enough sunlight and battery capacity. "
    Whoa!! Stop the press!!
    WHY?? at least in your case?



    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 11-30-2022 01:34 PM
    Bill,
    I have no idea why this happens. I assume Solar Edge engineers had a reason. Typically when the EV is plugged in and grid is available, the charging power might be 2-3.8 kW from PV and remainder (3-5 kW) from grid. If grid is not available, why wouldn't system allow priority charging of the EV from the PV once the local battery is 100% SOC?  Even though it is not going to give 100% charge to the EV it is better than nothing! That seems reasonable since powering the AC load is first priority when the grid is down. 

    Steve

    ------------------------------
    Steven Hegedus
    Professor and Senior Scientist
    University of Delaware
    Newark Delaware
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 11-30-2022 03:38 PM
    That's hopefully a configuration issue. You should be the one to determine where and how much the power should go. If you want to charge your car and the grid is down, the battery or battery + PV if available should take it self down to "zero" if you so desire it into the EV. 
    I can see the lawsuit now. I needed to take my wife to the hospital. The grid was down and all central com services were in chaos. I had the power in my SolarEdge battery, but it would not allow me to charge up the car for the short trip. AS a result, my wife died!
    I bet that would invoke some engineering changes....

    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Posted 12-01-2022 05:13 AM
    While SolarEdge may work that way with EV charging, I too suspect that is a configuration issue.  I have been testing with a FranklinWH (Franklin Whole Home) and they have three smart circuits that one can configure.  I dedicated one circuit (80 amp) to my EV charging subpanel where I have three NEMA 14-50 plugs in the garage to charge up to 3 EVs at the same time.  I set the FranklinWH to charge the EV's when connected to the grid, but if the grid goes down, it only will charge if the FranklinWH batteries are at 85% or better.  The user can configure the percentage and override as necessary.  But I think that is a nice feature that gives one a safety stop in the event of an emergency.  In our home 40% of our power goes to the cars.  So that is the one large knob I can adjust if we go through a blackout.

    ------------------------------
    David Hrivnak
    Sales/Engineering
    EcoLogical (part time)
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Posted 12-02-2022 11:58 AM
    Alas we do not have a PV collector/battery storage system installed... yet, so my personal knowledge is limited. However, I have read numerous statements regarding charging one’s EV or even just using an installed residential PV collector/battery storage system to power one’s home during power failures which have stated that Utilities companies, bless them, often demand that grid-tied residential PV systems be DISABLED when the Grid is down as a mandatory condition of connecting the system to the grid.

    I assume this policy of one’s local Utility company varies from place to place but from my reading, this is not an unusual PV home system characteristic as some commenters have suggested. Nonetheless, as others have stated, I find this policy shocking (no pun intended) and unacceptable but it’s the reality in many grid tied systems around the country.

    Bill

    Bill McKelvy
    BeauSoleil, passive solar house
    Germantown, TN




  • 18.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Posted 12-02-2022 12:13 PM
    Bill,

    I've been doing solar now for 13 years, and I've NEVER heard of a utility requiring you to SHUT DOWN your system when the power is out!! Perhaps you have heard, or are mis-interpreting UL1741 which REQUIRES THAT SOLAR POWERED SYSTEMS WITH BATTERY BACK-UP DISCONNECT FROM THE UTILITY WHEN THE UTILITY POWER IS DOWN.  This rule applies to all solar powered systems and it PROTECTS LINEMEN DOING REPAIRS FROM GETTING ELECTROCUTED!!

    Hope that clears things up a bit...

    ------------------------------
    Joe Utasi
    PV Solar Consultant
    Cinci Home Solar, Keowee Home Solar, DIY Solar Helper
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Posted 12-02-2022 02:35 PM
    Bill - To add to what Joe wrote,
    While the UL1741 requirements are mandatory for grid-interactive inverters, and I agree with Joe, no utility I am aware of forces you to disable your PV system with backup batteries when the grid goes down (would be pretty useless if that is the case), there is another reason it needs to disconnect from the grid during an outage besides Lineman protection.  The system would simply not work if it remained connected to the grid.  Our puny little 7.6kW hybrid inverter, if during a grid outage remained grid connected, as it tried to form it's own grid and start injecting current, would cough, sputter, and fail as it tried to drive 240V into the loads at your home, plus your neighbors homes, the homes down the street, etc. It has to island from the grid in order to have a manageable load to serve.

    ------------------------------
    Ken Nadsady
    AviSun Renewable Energy
    Hudson OH
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Posted 12-02-2022 02:42 PM
    Joe,

    Thanks so much for taking the time to reply.

    I sure hope you're correct because I've considered it pretty much of a showstopper. Memphis area gets its power from TVA which is lamentably anti-environment in their policies. But thanks to your reply, I'll try to check with Momphis Light Gas and Water next week to confirm one way or the other what their policy is on this subject. And yes, I've long understood the need for disconnecting home power from the grid when the grid is down to protect linemen just as we do with backup generator connections. Fingers crossed.

    Thanks again,

    Bill







  • 21.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Posted 12-02-2022 07:40 PM

    Bill,

    My experience in TN is mostly negative regarding solar. It seems most power companies are coops served by the TVA.  The TVA in most locations requires that if you want to backfeed for credit that you INSTALL A SEPARATE METER and connect ALL the solar output to that meter. Then, they will pay you for your credits at ONE THIRD the rate they bill at!!!! Certainly not an "incentive" to go solar. So many of my TN clients simply go OFF GRID.  If you are frugal and sensible about what you use and when (like using your electric dryer only between 11 and 3 when the sun is out,) you can live on 40KWH. (I live off grid, and I can confirm this is possible). If you can't convince your "other half" about the need to do things at certain times, then you're gonna need at least 60KWH of storage. With this amount you can run the mini-split in the master bedroom all night long during the summer, and during the winter, you will be able to go 2 to 3 days of GREY skies with ease. You'll still need at least a 9KW generator for those rare occasions when we get a WEEK of grey rainy weather, however.... If you choose the new 15KW "limitless" Sol-Ark inverter, you can put up 15KW of panels, and your batteries will charge quickly in the sun, and on grey days the panels will MORE than carry typical house loads under grey skies. I say all these things from personal experience here at the NW Corner of SC on Lake Keowee.... and I'm running with just 7800 watts of panels (28 old 280 watt units). I'm using LiFePo4 batteries and they are a GODSEND!!!! Nothing to worry about, no heating during charge OR Discharge up to 100A and NO CHANCE OF FIRE!
    Good luck with whatever you choose! I figure my daily cost is about $1.50 for electric amortizing my system cost over 20 years.



    ------------------------------
    Joe Utasi
    PV Solar Consultant
    Cinci Home Solar, Keowee Home Solar, DIY Solar Helper
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 12-03-2022 12:33 AM
    To put it simply and plainly, that TVA situation stinks. It is a shame from a human society perspective and from an engineering perspective that equality in each direction for energy generation is absent.
    Being off grid in the South Atlantic region is possible because the HDD and CDD are basically equal, in the low to mid 2000's for each. But being off grid also means you are on your own when it comes to your own power. When the power goes out NO MATTER WHEN, YOU have to deal with it! You are denied the benefits of being a part of a centralized system (Grid tied) which easily allows all of your PV's systems manufactured energy to be utilized. Off grid you can only gen what you use (I.E., and no I did not say that backwards). 
    Being grid tied with off grid capability is really the premium configuration for all climates. 

    I have played the "mental" game" many times figuring out how much PV and battery storage I would need to be off grid, (Central PA) battery at or over 500KWH and PV production in the 25+MWH's a year zone. And that is what I need NOW, not necessarily what I would need going forward. The day to day variations can be very large. With PV I always gen each day, but dark late Fall and Winter days can result in under 1KWH a day production and that is on a system that can basically gen 20MWH's a year.
    Anyway, hopefully the "rules" can be changed there to make it more equitable and RE promotional so all the people can benefit from both centralized and RE generated power.

    Thanks for the window into your reality.

    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 12-05-2022 10:23 AM
    My rare two cents to this forum re: PV.  "If you are frugal and sensible about what you use and when (like using your electric dryer only between 11 and 3 when the sun is out,) you can live on 40KWH. (I live off grid, and I can confirm this is possible)."

    Frugality is relative :) I have 6kw on my roof, in net-metering-friendly Minnesota. We have an electric dryer that uses almost exactly 6kw. Between 11 and 3, when the sun is out, I'd rather get Xcel's refund for making more than I use, by putting my clothes outside on the line. And in the winter, fold-up clothes drying racks are cheap, and clothes actually dry a littler faster than on the line in the summer, because the air is so dry to begin with.

    I'd recommend everyone eavesdrop in on my conversation with Chetan Solanki, who is on a mission to educate "1 million Indians" on his swaraj over the next 11 years: https://youtu.be/8YFUGOYpG8I

    He was recently featured in National Geographic. He is the first person I've heard to make this argument: Just because you *can* use that panel-generated electricity, doesn't mean you *must.* And it makes sense to me.

    So even if you can use that electric dryer with 40kw, you might still want to hang your clothes up --inside or out-- and let the sun, wind, lack of humidity do the job... in case you are suddenly called away and need to charge your EV ;)

    ------------------------------
    Luther Krueger
    Curator Maximo
    Big Blue Sun Museum of Solar Cooking, Minneapolis
    [EmailAddress]
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Posted 12-05-2022 10:48 AM
    I would use a clothesline, but the HOA has rules....

    ------------------------------
    Joe Utasi
    PV Solar Consultant
    Cinci Home Solar, Keowee Home Solar, DIY Solar Helper
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 12-05-2022 10:58 AM
    Yeah I think HOA owners should revolt! :)

    Do they prohibit inside clothes racks? Hope they wouldn't be that invasive  We use 'em inside when it's rainy in the summer...

    From: Joe Utasi
    Subject: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    I would use a clothesline, but the HOA has rules....

    ------------------------------
    Joe Utasi
    PV Solar Consultant
    Cinci Home Solar, Keowee Home Solar, DIY Solar Helper

    ------------------------------
    Luther Krueger
    Curator Maximo
    Big Blue Sun Museum of Solar Cooking, Minneapolis
    [EmailAddress]
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 12-05-2022 11:45 AM
    Invasive... probably don't have to. Just tie into the nanny cams, Alexa's, Google homes, etc. and they can find out all they want... maybe even the size of your underware as it hangs...

    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Posted 12-05-2022 01:15 PM
    You're absolutely right about all the cameras, and other voice operated stuff. I'm NOT a "paranoid prepper", but common sense tells me that just messing on facebook is already giving the "gummint" more than I care to share. No tictok, or any of the other similar things either. We live a rather happy life with lake and mountain views that extend to Georgia and NC. We spend a lot of time outdoors (since it's just perfect here 8 months out of the year...) We know our nearest neighbors and few farther out, and that is more than enough to keep us busy, occupied and happy!  I just wish I had better control of the winter sunshine!

    ------------------------------
    Joe Utasi
    PV Solar Consultant
    Cinci Home Solar, Keowee Home Solar, DIY Solar Helper
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Posted 12-05-2022 11:56 AM
    Yes we do indoor drying quite often... especially this time of year when  there's not much sun!  There are always compromises, but it's not nearly as much as you'd think. Even when I DO run the generator it's only for an hour or two, to get me through till the next day! My overnight consumption with phantom loads and what not, are only about 150AH, so 2 hours of gen time at a100A charge rate into the batteries will get me to tomorrow!  Full capacity is about 750AH (I hate to take the batts down any further than that...)

    ------------------------------
    Joe Utasi
    PV Solar Consultant
    Cinci Home Solar, Keowee Home Solar, DIY Solar Helper
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Chapter Leader
    Posted 12-05-2022 10:14 AM
    The reason that all utilities (and the National Electrical Code) require PV systems to disconnect from the grid when it goes down is safety. If linemen/women are working on transmission and distribution lines or other components connected to the local and regional grids, they need to know for certain that the system is not energized. Your inverter is supposed to disconnect from the grid within a few seconds after sensing the loss of grid frequency or minimum voltage. If PV arrays and other power generating systems were still pushing power to the grid, it could result in shock or even electrocution for people trying to bring the grid back up.

    If you want to have backup power for when the grid is down, you'll need an inverter system that can both island your house from the grid and use your PV array and a battery bank to provide energy for your critical loads. Most people choose to not provide backup for all uses, rather critical loads such as refrigerators and climate control. This keeps your battery bank and related costs smaller.

    All of this is really a separate issue from EV charging considerations unless you want to charge an EV when the grid is down. The better long-term path will be EVs that can offer up their own batteries to serve as the storage component of a home solar array and inverter that can island from the grid.


    Rich Strömberg (he/his/él)
    Lecturer, Mentor - Clark Family School of Environment and Sustainability
    Equitable Solar Solutions at Coldharbour Institute
    Focus on Food-Energy-Water-Waste Solutions
    Western Colorado University
    719-439-7406

    "You normally have to be bashed about a bit by life to see the point of daffodils, sunsets and uneventful nice days."
    ― Alain de Botton





  • 30.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Posted 12-01-2022 05:21 AM
    While SolarEdge may work that way with EV charging, I too suspect that is a configuration issue.  I have been testing with a FranklinWH (Franklin Whole Home) and they have three smart circuits that one can configure.  I dedicated one circuit (80 amp) to my EV charging subpanel where I have three NEMA 14-50 plugs in the garage to charge up to 3 EVs at the same time.  I set the FranklinWH to charge the EV's when connected to the grid, but if the grid goes down, it only will charge if the FranklinWH batteries are at 85% or better.  The user can configure the percentage and override as necessary.  But I think that is a nice feature that gives one a safety stop in the event of an emergency.  In our home 40% of our power goes to the cars.  So that is the one large knob I can adjust if we go through a blackout.

    ------------------------------
    David Hrivnak
    Sales/Engineering
    EcoLogical (part time)
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 12-01-2022 07:01 AM
    I think you have a double entry...
    But yes, hopefully configuration. Maybe someone with specific experience configuring SolarEdge will chim in... regarding such...

    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 12-01-2022 07:54 PM
    Tech support from SolarEdge may be able to direct you (or the installer) to the settings needed to provide power to the load that you choose, during grid failure.

    ------------------------------
    Stu Besnoff
    owner
    Alpine Solar Heat and Hot Water, LLC
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Posted 12-02-2022 09:51 AM
    @William Fitch

    I can understand your inital reaction is to say Inverter and Charger manuafacturers should allow owners to use the energy as they want when installing solar + storage and and EV charger.  In reality, it is not practical and nearly no one would choose to do as you describe.  Most battery backup systems installed with solar have very low kWh capacity, and that is the case with the OP system. When the grid goes down, that energy is needed to run the loads backed up, and using that precious energy for extremely large loads​ (EV charging is among the highest possible load, if not THE highest load in the home), just quickly drains the battery and defeats the purpose of having backup storage to operate the critical loads.  EV batteries are generally 64kWh or larger nowadays.  It does not make much sense to drain 10kWh from a backup battery, to put into the 64kWh battery, when the grid is down, leaving the home without power.  If the array is producing, then it might make sense to use extra available energy from the array, if the battery is fully charged and the critical loads are being met in the home, to charge the EV.  But this scenario would not likely occur very often, i.e. the power goes out, the sun is shining, the home battery is full, the home critical loads are being met, and there is significant solar energy leftover to charge the EV. You can see why a solar manufacturer might think that is not a scenario important enough to expend resources to accommodate.  The better approach I think is for EV owners to be aware of the state of charge of their vehicle at all times, or at least especially when their is risk of power outages due to storms or fire, to minimize the chance they need an emergency charge.

    ------------------------------
    Ken Nadsady
    AviSun Renewable Energy
    Hudson OH
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 12-02-2022 02:31 PM
    Edited by william fitch 12-02-2022 02:34 PM
    I agree with everything you said, except for one thing. There is no reason to expend extra resources to "lock out" someone from doing that function (Get out of dodge) if they need to. If you want to charge your EV because of an unusual emergency, than let them do it. There is no reason that the default sequences cannot be just that, default sequences, BUT STILL ALLOW for the CHOICE if the user wants it.
    This way my dead wife scenario is avoided.
    To me, that choice is the difference between good engineering and excellence in engineering.

    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    ------------------------------



  • 35.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Posted 12-03-2022 07:13 PM
    Re charging EVs off grid, I have a Solar Edge inverter (w/o the built in EV charger) connected to 7.67 kW of panels, and 2x Tesla Powerwalls. My system is set to allow me to run what ever load I have wattage, amperage, LRA (to start heat pumps), and battery capacity to support. I can charge my Rivian or Bolt from my JuiceBox (or the Rivian's portable charger in the NEMA 14-50) if the grid is down, but I would need to make sure that I am drawing a level of power within my "power budget." If the SE inverter doesn't allow charging in grid outage, it's a design decision, and is almost 100% likely to be addressable via a software mod if SE wanted to support it...

    As an aside, the Tesla Powerwalls may not be the most efficient storage solution but they have the most mature and flexible software stack insofar as I know. And software configuration from the user end is a big part of customer satisfaction.

    -Joel
    --





  • 36.  RE: EV's, the other half of solar. Reality EV.

    Posted 12-01-2022 10:57 AM
    Hi Steven,

    The reason that the SolarEdge 3.8kW inverter will not sharge at higher than it's 3.8kW rating is likely due to the installation and configuration.  Is the EVC a SolarEdge charger, and is it directly connected to the Energy Hub?  If so, the Energy Hub should be able to charge the EV up to a full 40A when the Grid is up and their is a lot of solar resource available.  Another factor is the AC wiring at the output of the inverter to the interconnection point.  For a 3.8kW inverter, which is rated for 16A at 240V, typically 20A OCPD is installed.  At installation, if the EVC is wired directly to the Energy Hub, you have to configure the inverter as such, so it knows it can send more than 16A out to the EVC, using the solar boost.  Also, the wiring to the EVC must be sized for 40A, so must be 6AWG.  And there is a dip switch setting on the EVC as well that sets it's maximum allowed charging current.

    -Ken

    ------------------------------
    Ken Nadsady
    AviSun Renewable Energy
    Hudson OH
    ------------------------------