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How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

  • 1.  How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 01-09-2023 06:59 PM
    How many homes probably have solar electric power systems that do not work well? Or at all? Can we help you check your system? Technical scary? Inverter thingy? Gee, what utility bill? Yeah, it's not the savings I thought it would be.
    Do you have any idea how many systems were never turned on correctly? Meters are not properly registered? It's like EV chargers! There are gremlins in the fuse box. EV clubs expose the dumbest chargers, the worst installers, the vandalism and the sad reality of being volunteer ambassadors to an uneducated public. 
    How would you like to receive better understanding of how your photovoltaic system is working? How old is it? If it's newer there may be a fun app!

    ------------------------------
    Wyldon Fishman
    Bronx NY
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 01-10-2023 10:40 AM
    Hi: I have read your post about 4 times. 
    The questions and potential problems you list are real enough, unfortunately.
    If I understand your last line correctly, you have a smartphone app which can give greater visibility to one's PV outputs..??..

    As a matter of general note, most utilities "smart meters" will cycle through several "fields" on the meter display. I know PPL calls their first field Display 001. It shows the cumulative KWH's taken from the power company. Display 002 shows the cumulative KWH's received by the power company. Subtracting the two shows the total net power flow across.

    If one writes down the second field number, you can see if the number is going up day to day, showing production.

    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Chapter Leader
    Posted 01-10-2023 11:36 AM
    Hi William,

    That is indeed a good first step that anyone should be able to do. Many meters also show the current output of the solar array in kW as sit cycles through the various screens of kWh, amps and kW.

    It is important to also check your bill as we installed an array for a woman and verified through her inverter and her prouction meter that all was functioning correctly but the utility billing department had not associated the production meter with her account and she missed out on 4 months of power generation until we caught the problem.

    -Rich

    ------------------------------
    Rich Stromberg
    ESS Program Director
    Equitable Solar Solutions/Coldharbour Inst.
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Chapter Leader
    Posted 01-10-2023 11:48 AM
    Hi Wyldon,

    I think apps associated with inverters and microinverters are great for getting curious system owners to monitor their own systems. These are very powerful. 

    For those with older systems who would like to monitor their array output live, we have installed some low-cost Emporia Vue monitors inside the breaker panel. They connect through the home's wifi. If you're not a DIYer, an electrician can install one very quickly.

    Others might be happiest just going out at the first of each month to check their meter or scroll through the screens on their inverter and logging the output values. The PV Technical Division is happy to help people learn how to do this for themselves and how to tell if there is a problem or how to estimate how much your system has aged over the years.

    It is important for all system owners to check periodically as minor things like minor grid outages or power surges can trip an inverter offline. Many times, the inverter will reset all by itself but occasionally it can get confused and stay offline until someone comes by to turn the system off and then back on again. I recently witnessed a 100-kilowatt commercial system where the inverter was in a fault state (and likely had been for many months). A quick power cycle and everything began working normally again.

    If there are enough people interested in getting more assistance on how to monitor their arrays, we can set up some Zoom time or even a formal webinar.

    -Rich
    vice chair, PV technical division

    ------------------------------
    Rich Stromberg
    ESS Program Director
    Equitable Solar Solutions/Coldharbour Inst.
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 01-10-2023 01:25 PM
    A great discussion!  I  think this is a great education opportunity for ASES! Has anyone seen a good, simple, online resource that would help folks with older systems like this? I haven't !  Let's fill the gap!

    ------------------------------
    Dara Bortman
    Sustainable Solar Systems
    Philadelphia PA
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 01-11-2023 10:13 AM
    Thank you all; such an important topic! I can work with an intern on creating an infographic on the steps to see if their system is still making power.

    ------------------------------
    Ella Nielsen
    Membership & Engagement Manager
    American Solar Energy Society
    Boulder CO
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 01-11-2023 11:51 AM
    That I think would be a useful tool for people. The make it simple to keep it simple approach.
    Getting wide distribution will be the trick. Its easy to distribute music to the choir vs the general pub...

    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 01-11-2023 03:19 PM
    Edited by Mike Curran 01-11-2023 03:22 PM
      |   view attached
    My house got a smart meter last August, and I just installed a smart meter monitor from Emporia Energy (https://shop.emporiaenergy.com/collections/emporia-products/products/utility-connect). This device connects to your utility's meter wirelessly, and through an app on your cellphone can give you real-time power consumption or production from your PV system, in increments from second to second up to the last year. The attached screenshot shows the hourly net energy consumption/production at my meter since shortly after it went live. Your utility (meter) must have the capability to connect for it to work. I also have an 8 channel Vue setup for my barn circuits, but I find this data much easier to interpret. The green bars are hours when I was a net exporter (seller) to the grid, blue bars I was buying. Pretty inexpensive and no need for an electrician.
    ------------------------------
    Mike Curran
    Retired from (dare I say it?) Fossil Plant Mgt.
    ------------------------------
    --------------------------------


  • 9.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 01-11-2023 04:30 PM
    Keep sending ideas for homeowners to become aware of how "easy" it is to check a solar energy producing system. Remember to send to the whole group so Ella can gather the facts. The more basic first step might be to peek at an inverter but let's vote on the order of presentation to the public. Bumper sticker-style advice is best. We can use your picture of your inverter along with different ones.
     
    Also, each way to check a home system might require a What To Do If....

    Think handout at the National Solar Tour.  It'll probably be under the RESOURCE tab on the ASES main (landing) page.






  • 10.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Posted 01-30-2023 11:40 PM
    Hi Mike,

    It sounds from the description and from looks of the graph that this smartmeter can display import and export data, not necessarily production or consumption data. Can you clarify?  While it is helpful to know how much energy is being pulle dor sent to the grid, that is just part of the picture.

    ------------------------------
    Ken Nadsady
    AviSun Renewable Energy
    Hudson OH
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 01-31-2023 06:58 AM
    Hi Ken - That's correct, import and export only. Maybe not relevant to the OP 
    since it doesn't measure the details, but I thought it might be of interest. - Mike


    ------------------------------
    Mike Curran
    Retired EE
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Chapter Leader
    Posted 01-31-2023 10:16 AM
    Hi Mike. The challenge with this particular Emporia device is that it is communicating with the utility meter and at that measuring point, the only thing you can discern is the amount of power being pulled from the grid or the amount of surplus solar being pushed to the grid. An exception would be if your utility requires a second solar production meter in which case you should be able to connect with that specific meter - this would allow you to see full system power generation.

    Emporia also makes the Gen 2 Vue monitor that connects to your breaker panel. If you place a CT sensor on each of your two hot wires feeding into your inverter breakers, this will allow you to read your solar array production after any inverter efficiency losses.

    -Rich

    ------------------------------
    Rich Stromberg
    ESS Program Director
    Equitable Solar Solutions/Coldharbour Inst.
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 01-31-2023 10:58 AM
    Edited by Mike Curran 01-31-2023 11:12 AM
    Hi Rich - Yeah, I get that.  I also have a Vue Gen 1 monitor but because my solar array breakers are remote from the panel where the CT's are, I don't have them monitored individually and the resulting data is really hard to interpret and perhaps meaningless.  Here's a screenshot:
    Note there are 2 electrically separate solar arrays on the barn, plus one on the house (3.2kw) totally unmonitored by the Vue Gen 1. In the circuit listing above, there's a 3.85kw DC-coupled array to the Skybox, and a ~9.5kw grid-tied array connected to the L1 & L2 circuits.

    ------------------------------
    Mike Curran
    Retired EE
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Chapter Leader
    Posted 01-31-2023 11:08 AM
    Maybe you could move the Gen Vue 1 over to the solar circuits for a few days (full sunny day would allow you to compare against PVWatts hourly estimates for the same sunny day) to do a system evaluation and then move your monitor back to the original location.

    ------------------------------
    Rich Stromberg
    ESS Program Director
    Equitable Solar Solutions/Coldharbour Inst.
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Posted 02-02-2023 10:41 PM
    Hi All,

    I''m the "intern" Ella spoke about, reporting for duty. 🫡 I'd be happy to create some sort of resource that can guide folks through this.

    My primary concern at this point is that there is a lot of variation in what the check procedure would be depending on the specific system and setup. Perhaps the high-level details/objectives are similar but if this is intended to guide non-technical people through the weeds of reading inverter readouts and the like, this could get complicated and lengthy fast.

    I've never dealt with a solar setup in real life, but I've got an engineering background an am comfortable with electronics and the general components of a PV installation.

    As a preliminary survey, could each of you who has a means of monitoring your system just outline in the steps you take to do so? For example:
    1. Walk out to shed/garage where inverter is
    2. Press four buttons to cycle through two screens and read the cumulative electricity generation
    3. Write that down for posterity
    4. Subtract the previous reading from last month and compare the monthly generation total to last month's
    5. Celebrate/panic

    Any other details or resources you could share to broaden my knowledge at this early stage would be much appreciated!

    Kyle

    ------------------------------
    Kyle Combes
    Software Engineer & Technical Product Manager
    Oceanworks, Inc
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 02-03-2023 03:59 AM
    Welcome!

    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Posted 02-05-2023 09:00 AM
    I've been doing some research (i.e. watching YouTube videos) on how various people monitor their systems, and it appears that Enphase and SolarEdge inverters offer great mobile and web UIs for monitoring generation. Based on this PV Magazine article from 2021, it seems the two combined have cornered almost 90% of the market in the states mentioned in the article. I feel it'd be reasonable to assume they control over two-thirds of most markets.

    This leaves me with a few questions:
    • How long have these WiFi-enabled inverters been on the market? (Underlying question: What rough percentage of installations have these smart monitoring solutions?)
    • Does the target audience of this informational material lack these smart monitors (i.e. they'd need to do something more manual) or do most simply not know how to use the monitoring tools already at their disposal?
    • If the target audience lacks smart monitors, are they comfortable reading inverter user manuals or pressing buttons on their inverter to discover output metrics through trial and error?
    Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

    ------------------------------
    Kyle Combes
    Software Engineer & Technical Product Manager
    Oceanworks, Inc
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Posted 02-05-2023 10:08 AM
    Hi Kyle,
    SolarEdge includes excellent monitoring capabilities with their inverter and optimizer architecture. I believe this contributes to their high market share for residential systems. When I install SolarEdge, I always include the optional current transformer sensors needed to measure current flow to and from the grid. This is needed to get full insight into the power and energy flows, consumption, EV charging from solar, etc. Their monitoring can be accessed through the MySolarEdge mobile app or using a computer browser. It is very easy to know how your solar is producing with SolarEdge, even down to each panel. Installers should always brief customers on how to use monitoring tools after the system is installed. It is not difficult with SolarEdge for the vast majority of people, unless they have trouble installing apps on phone or have difficulty with basics of using a computer. Enohase has a decent monitoring capability as well, but not as rich as SolarEdge.

    ------------------------------
    Ken Nadsady
    AviSun Renewable Energy
    Hudson OH
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 02-05-2023 02:02 PM
    Edited by Mike Curran 02-05-2023 02:14 PM
      |   view attached
    Hi Kyle - Fyi, here's a link to the public site for my Emphase system https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221, which covers 2 larger arrays plus a single ground mount panel for comparison purposes (steeper angle for winter compared to other array roof mounts). The earliest array I put up in 2012 but I'm sure Enphase has been doing this monitoring since before that. Perfectly adequate for my purposes, and I have an Emporia Energy smart monitor for whole house net to/from grid (see earlier posts in this thread).
    I also have 2 separate grid-tied battery backup systems with Outback Power equipment. Outback offers an app called OpticsRE that both monitors status and allows much system programming. Screenshot of one of the two systems' power flow chart from Optics shown below.
    The Outback system connected to my roof panels have Tigo optimizers on each module, and Tigo has their own app for monitoring them. Link to public access: https://ei.tigoenergy.com/p/pZXn7SZQyO45
    ------------------------------
    Mike Curran
    Retired EE
    ------------------------------
    -------------------------------------------


  • 20.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Posted 02-05-2023 05:52 PM
    Hi Mike and Ken,

    Thanks for getting back to me so quickly.

    It seems that those with newer systems are well covered in terms of monitoring ability.

    If the primary target audience for this kind of educational material is folks with older systems, my next question is this: How much consistency is there between the user interfaces of older systems/inverters? If we need to recommend they go out and click through menus on their inverter, how much specific information can we give them? Or will I just have to say "Find your users manual and look for the section that tells you how to see the number of kWh generated"? I'm not familiar with these systems, and I could put together something very basic and high-level, but I'm worried that won't be very helpful.

    ------------------------------
    Kyle Combes
    Software Engineer & Technical Product Manager
    Oceanworks, Inc
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 02-05-2023 06:21 PM
    There really isn't consistency that a "regular" person would see. All these companies have their own proprietary interfaces. It's just like EV interfaces. They are al different. 
    The idea of a universal go to "manual" sounds like a good idea, except once finished if it in fact covered all the bases, would probably be more complicated then if hey would grab the original manual or pull it up on line. 
    To a certain degree, dare I say, people really have to be motivated to really want to find a solution, rather than just complain. You can lead a horse to water as they say, but you can not make them drink. In this case the water maybe contains about 50% personal responsibility and real interest.
    I think you might be able to come up with a, "Cheap Tricks" reference card, much like the ones used for techs in the field regarding complex new guidelines and regulations, like the ones around electrical code, and solar code changes, etc..

    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Posted 03-14-2023 11:52 AM
      |   view attached

    Hi All,

    After chatting with Rich, I put together this infographic to help people check their meters. It seems like the biggest commonality and should be fairly easy for them to find. Unfortunately, there's still a good deal of variation in meters, so it's not exactly a simple infographic.

    Let me know your thoughts. I can change the color scheme if it's too low contrast.



    ------------------------------
    Kyle Combes
    Software Engineer, Technical Product Manager & ASES intern
    ------------------------------

    Attachment(s)



  • 23.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 03-14-2023 12:24 PM

    Great work, Kyle! I look forward to hearing others' feedback.



    ------------------------------
    Ella Nielsen
    Membership & Engagement Manager
    American Solar Energy Society
    Boulder CO
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 03-14-2023 12:40 PM

    Nice job Kyle.  My only comment is that on meters that measure both import and export, export is usually not exactly what your panels are producing, since some of that production gets consumed by your house.  Other than that, good work!



    ------------------------------
    Mike Curran
    Retired EE
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Posted 03-14-2023 01:22 PM

    I agree the graphic is nice, but I am afraid the info contained in it will cause more confusion for homeowners than it will help their understanding.  As Mike said, there is a basic error in the information.  A utility meter can only measure what is imported from the grid, or what is exported to the grid.  If there is export, then you know the solar is producing, but you don't know how much. Also, if the export kWh counter is not increasing, that doesn' mean the solar is not producing.

    The best/easiest way to know if your solar is producing is to look at the monitoring portal for your system. If you don't have monitoring, it is best to get it added.  Another good way is to buy a simple AC Multimeter with a Clamp Sensor for measuring current, and clamp it around one of the conductors (not both) of the 240VAC output of the inverter. Unfortunately, access to the discrete wires coming from the inverter is usually difficult without opening up electrical equipment and exposing the user to live conductors.

    A third way to know, is to wait for a sunny day, and with the array in the sun, observe the import and export numbers on the utility meter, If the array is of decent size and there is not much power being used in the home, it should be exporting. If it is not, then write down both counters, the import kWh and the export kWh. Wait 15-30 minutes and then write down the counters again.  Now shut down the inverter, and waith 15-30 minutes and write down the counters again. If there is a big jump in usage/import from Reading 2 to Reading 3, compared to Reading 1 to Reading 2, then you can conclude that the solar was producing significant energy while Reading's 1 and 2 were taken but not while Reading 3 was taken, as long as there was not a large change in loads in the house.



    ------------------------------
    Ken Nadsady
    AviSun Renewable Energy
    Hudson OH
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 03-14-2023 02:43 PM
    Edited by william fitch 03-14-2023 02:56 PM

    Hi: I can see you put a chunk of time into this. I like the line style drawings and print size and font. 

    I tried to look at this in two ways. First as me. The second as someone else like a "regular" person. Second is hard of course. 

    First as me. The wording in the first big block of print beginning with, "If you have a single meter". 

    The fact is whether you have a single meter or "X" number of meters, the first meter(IE Utility meter) will always show you the exact same info., second or more meters aside. SO the "user" can always count on that meter to show both "to the grid" and "from the grid" KWH numbers. 

    Regarding the second meter, I don't know how many installers use expensive digital meters for production. Additionally, to connect with it remotely would probably require specific coms equipment. I always use simple commercial grade scrolling numbers meters which can go both ways if needed, and read to 100,000 KWH's than cycle around back to zero, etc. for another loop. They are cheap and reliable. I know some states, at an increasing number will now except inverter read numbers for production and SREC validation, so installers are not necessarily using the "second" meters anymore. I do, but that is beside the point. I think the trend is away from.

    Second as someone else:

    Showing the "pictures" of the production meter along with the utility meter and doing the whole number and line thing, my eyes were getting a bit crossed and confused. It may be more easily understood if you SHOW a single meter, the utility meter, and explain the fields as you did, and leave the rest to just verbal info. After all, on the production meter if digital, everything will be zeros except for one field (Aside from 88888). That would clean up the whole line thing making it easier to follow. And if it is just a regular "numbers" meter, what you see is what you get. You might also mention the production meter if there is one, may not be next to the utility meter but on some kind of separate "power wall" next to a sub panel (Mine is that way in the garage/barn)

    As a whole though, nice job...



    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Chapter Leader
    Posted 03-14-2023 07:14 PM

    I can't speak for other states but in Colorado, the utilities I have worked with require that they (the utility) installs a producton meter. An electrician or solar installer can set the meter recepticle but only the utilty can install the actual production meter.

    Maybe just using a single photo of the meter will make the flyer a little clearer for novices - who are the intended audience anyway.

    Gunnison production meter showing 2,922 kWh of energy produced to date.
    The intent here isn't to determine what percentage your array might have degraded since your install or if there is a single rogue module in the array. The intent is to make sure that owners are checking their inverter or their meter every now and then to make sure that the inverter isn't in a fault state or completely dead. I see this issue way more than I like to or might have expected.
    The fact that many homeowners I talk with don't know their module manufacturer, module wattage or even system nameplate total size confirms the concept that "There are no products - only services". While early adopters would get into the nitty gritty, so many of the people I talk with simply want a solar array to reduce ther energy costs. Once it is installed, they tend to forget about it and assume all is working fine. A neighbor of mine couldn't even tell me who installed his system, let alone the module type. "I don't know. My wife scheduled it."
    I have encountered a Sunny Boy inverter that was in a fault state at a large mountain research facility. It had been offline for months. This fall I paid a visit to a housing authority building and found the 100kW central inverter with a system fault that had been in this state for at least several months and possibly more than a year. No one in the accounts payable department was checking to notice if their electrical bills had gone up. There was also no remote monitoring system. A simple system reset brought everything back to life.
    I visited a senior living center with 6 14.4kW inverters on the roof. Two inverters were running and reflected normal total kWh produced in the 6 years since the system was installed. Two inverters were in a fault state and their producton logs showed that one inverter had been offline for a year and a half. The other had been offline for 4.5 years. The other two inverters were in a fault state and the displays wouldn't even provide production data nor fault codes. These are the kinds of issues we want to help system owners catch quickly before they lose significant energy savings or worse, not detect a problem until their inverter is out of warranty.
    On this flyer or maybe a separate one, just show some typical inverters so people know where to look for a fault light. I mostly have images of inverters in a normal state like this:
    Here is a SolarEdge inverter in a fault state:
    We should encourage people to check their web-based portal if they have one on the system. That's even better than walking up to the inverter. As for adding monitors to the service panel with CT clamps, that's something I do but your average system owner will want to have an electrician do this and that starts to be prohibitive for people who are buying the service of energy savings and don't want to have to think about things too much.
    Are there different flavors of utility meters out there? Yes but the market is dominated by two suppliers. Let's just try to help the widest population of solar array owners and make a dent in the rate of non-performing systems.
    Thanks,
    Rich


    ------------------------------
    Rich Stromberg
    Equitable Solar Solutions co-founder
    PhD student at University of Alaska
    Researcher at Alaska Center for Energy and Power
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 03-15-2023 04:30 AM
    Edited by william fitch 03-15-2023 08:04 AM

    God. All those "on hold" conditions are "so real world", which of course is a BIG problem. You triggered an idea. When you said allot of people don't even know their installer because the wife.... etc.. Maybe on the sheet he is producing there can be fill in lines for system installer, date, panel mfg., inverter mfg. and any phone numbers at the install time. This would give the System owner an opportunity to put basic info where it can be "had" easily. Like a basic contact emergency sheet, etc..

    Additionally, all your "finds" show that the inverter is the trouble point for continued smooth output, which is why I don't like micro-inverters. 50 panels, 50 more points of inverter failures. String inverters on the ground is best unless heavy shadowing is an issue for the array.

    EDIT: Regarding the "getting to get people to..." thoughts. You can lead a horse to water...

    People generally will not do things that they are not interested in. Take 3 simple things. Repairing a Car, cutting the grass and vacuuming a floor. 

    If people do not repair their car, mow the lawn or vacuum the floor, the unavoidable result is they get stranded at home, walk in field high grass and probably break local zoning rules and eventually live with dirt floors. All three of these unacceptable results FORCES people to take care of the situation, NOT INTEREST. If the solar isn't working, for one, they may not even notice because it does not effect their ability to "live". Now, if their solar went out and their power went out, guess what, it would be dealt with ASAP as people have to do that live off-grid. Grid tie are void from such symptoms. 

    SO my point is that you can design a really good sheet, but at the end of the day for grid tie people, some will bother and some won't based on their interests mostly.



    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Chapter Leader
    Posted 03-15-2023 08:58 AM

    I was inspecting a friend's rooftop array in Albuquerque last fall. He also didn't know who the installer was or the module type. Fortunately, PNM (or the state electrical inspector) requires that a weather-proof tube be mounted next to the production meter on the outside of the house containing the system drawings. Very helpful!

    BTW, he had Hanwa modules. They are in great shape!

    My advice to solar installers is to make sure and place your company's sticker somewhere readily visible so you don't miss out on referrals. 



    ------------------------------
    Rich Stromberg
    ESS Program Director
    Equitable Solar Solutions/Coldharbour Inst.
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Posted 03-15-2023 07:21 AM

    I am circling back to add a few more points, after reading responses from Rich and William, and rethinking how my response could support the goal, which I understand is providing basic, realatively easy guidance to homeowners to help them know that their solar generation system is producing energy.

    I have specific feedback on the graphic as it was initally created.  I am not trying to be critical, but at the very least, it should not be misleading, so these comments, following each section and existing text are meant to correct misleading info:

    (1) Locate your electricity meter(s) All homes have at least one meter installed to keep track of how much electricity you have produced with your solar panels and consumed from the grid. They are installed on the outside of your house and circular in shape.

        In the above paragraph, it discusses the utility meter. The utility meter does not measure how much energy was produced by the solar panels. It measures any excess energy produced by solar that was not consumed in the home and therfore was exported out to the grid. This is an important distinction, as many solar generation systems may not produce enough in the winter to export any energy for weeks or months at a time. But that does not mean the system is malfunctioning.

    (3) [1] If you have a single meter, then this meter will show both the amount of electricity consumed from the grid and the amount generated by your panels. There is some variation between meters, so yours may not behave exactly as illustrated, but it should convey the same key information.

       In the paragraph above, again, the utility meter does not measure the energy generated by your panels, only the exported, excess energy.

    (3) [1] (4) Another screen shows how much electricity your panels have produced (indicated by 002, REC or RC for received by the grid from your home. 

      In the above, again, it should be changed to say how much excess energy was exported to the grid.

    Some other feedback: I think that finding Analog meters still in use by utilities after a solar installation would be really rare. Most utilities have had a meter replacement program to replace all analog meters with digital models that have wireless communications capability so they don't have to walk up to the meter for readings, for a long time.  And if a utility has not, but it has to net meter customers and therfore track import and export individually, then the meter would have to be changed when the solar is installed, triggered by the net metering agreement.

    I think the problem we are trying to address here has been largely contributed to by installation companies who have in a sense failed to provide good service to customers.  Every installation should include some documentation of how the system works, and also a walk-thru with the customer to demonstrate basic features of the system, with discussion and Q&A about how it works, how to know if there might be a problem, etc. Also, in my opinion, every solar install should include a monitoring system, including import/export monitoring, which then by mathematics usually provides consumption monitoring. This tracking of energy flows gets even more complicated when battery storage or EV chargers are added into the mix. With a well-designed monitoring system, like that from SolarEdge, homeowners can have compolete insight into all aspects of this energy flow, like how much energy was used to recharge a battery, how much to charge their EV, is the EV being charged from solar or grid?

    Maybe, in addition to a simplified and corrected graphic, it would be helpful to create abasic write-up about monitoring in general, and explain what different meters in different places do, what production, import, export, and consumption are, and the relationships they have with eachother and to their electric bill. Basically, a tutorial on monitoring.

    Of course, for an old system that has been in place for a long time and that does not have the bells and whistles of a modern monitoring system, the homeowner may have to get more educated about what they can glean from their system. Fortunately, most old inverters have LCD displays, so at the very least, they should be able to read instantaneous and cumulative production of their system just by walking up to the inverter.

    -Ken



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    Ken Nadsady
    AviSun Renewable Energy
    Hudson OH
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  • 31.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Posted 03-15-2023 06:30 AM

    Simple answer is unplug stuff like the grid.  Switch off the grid a few days and rely on your solar side only, see how that works. 



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    Timothy Mcbride
    CEO/Owner
    Sol-Era R & D
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  • 32.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Posted 03-15-2023 07:28 AM

    Simple answer is unplug stuff like the grid.  Switch off the grid a few days and rely on your solar side only, see how that works. 

    @Timothy Mcbride That would test a hybrid solar system with battery storage, but would not work for a grid-tied system, which is the more common installation.



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    Ken Nadsady
    AviSun Renewable Energy
    Hudson OH
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  • 33.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Posted 03-15-2023 08:00 AM
    Edited by Timothy Mcbride 03-15-2023 10:30 AM



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    Timothy Mcbride
    CEO/Owner
    Sol-Era R & D
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  • 34.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 03-15-2023 08:16 AM

    Yes, your regenative AC power source is basically a battery backup, which most PV grid tie systems don't have, IE, un-plug will get you nowhere for array testing. 

    The only way to test is with at least a multi meter and the electrical knowledge for doing such, without zapping yourself, if some kind of info system is not available or the whole thing is down.



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    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
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  • 35.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Posted 03-15-2023 08:32 AM

    @Timothy Mcbride I am not sure how you googling "how to test grid-tie inverters" and copying and pasting a graphic that depicts equipment that would be used by an inverter manufacturer in a test lab helps with the goal here to help Kyle develop some easy to understand material that can help homeowners with solar.



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    Ken Nadsady
    AviSun Renewable Energy
    Hudson OH
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  • 36.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Posted 03-15-2023 08:58 AM
    Edited by Timothy Mcbride 03-15-2023 10:19 AM

    Right yet the concept is the same always get the overview from the source when troubleshooting and work your theory from there 



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    Timothy Mcbride
    CEO/Owner
    Sol-Era R & D
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  • 37.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Chapter Leader
    Posted 03-15-2023 08:53 AM

    I've lived off-grid since 2006. For off-grid folks, we have the advantage of knowing fairly quickly if something fails. Fortunately, my system has been quite robust.



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    Rich Stromberg
    ESS Program Director
    Equitable Solar Solutions/Coldharbour Inst.
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  • 38.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Posted 03-15-2023 05:27 PM
    Edited by Timothy Mcbride 03-15-2023 05:34 PM

    Yes robust indeed.  I have a very strong suspicion  that in the very near future these solar systems will be so simple to install DIY like, and the monitoring equipment will be so standard that questions like this will be mute, for the misnomers of grid connected arrays will quickly become obsolete, as stand alone will become common place as installments. Nevertheless companies installing these grid connected systems should also install equipment that allows the homeowner to know and or app-wise exactly what is going on within their systems hands down no questions ask.  



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    Timothy Mcbride
    CEO/Owner
    Sol-Era R & D
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  • 39.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 03-15-2023 05:37 PM

    I certainly hope not. Grid tie with stand alone capability is way better for many, many reasons, not the least of which is that with grid tie, a modules full EROI can be utilized. Stand alone only, you can only produce what you use and that does not make maximum capability of the solar gen resource. Also, grid tie keeps you from having to get up at 3AM at 10 degF and 25 MPH wind to figure out why your power went out.

    Off grid is no panacea and to be truthful, most people could not handle it, or want to... There are OTHER reasons why power production became centralized besides money. Engineering reasons.



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    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
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  • 40.  RE: How Do I Know My System is Still Making Power?

    Posted 03-15-2023 05:55 PM
    Edited by Timothy Mcbride 03-17-2023 07:29 AM

    One must take into account where humans will want to live in the near future as the mass exodus from the cities are already occurring, coupled with the super EV compacity to store energy while at home, and the power wall energy storage type technology will boom, plus the efficiency of future appliances and electronics that will incorporate an internal power cell that will operate the device for months on end, never underestimate the human ingenuity to invent, and innovate in times of crisis of which this climate thing will assimilate fully.  The current electrical grid has failed the human race, and is riddled with all kinds of problems that add to the over all climate crisis from nuclear to coal, to whatever nasty stuff people can find to burn in those power plants. Folks are ready for a change and that change will be off grid completely therefore off grid solar systems will rise to meet that challenge and will win.   The wireless world Tesla foretold is here.  

    Battery-Equipped Appliances ( BEA)



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    Timothy Mcbride
    CEO/Owner
    Sol-Era R & D
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