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Pagosa Springs Ambient House performance for 2024

  • 1.  Pagosa Springs Ambient House performance for 2024

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 01-17-2025 10:33 PM

    It has been a while since I have posted data from our house. Below is hourly indoor temperature for 2024. January was the most challenging month, with the lowest outdoor temperatures and also many cloudy days. 2024 performance was overall pretty good (see the histogram), with only 134 hours below our lower comfort limit of 18C = 65F (the blue 17 -18C temperature bin on the left). We used a fire in the fireplace for a total of 19 hours, mostly in January. No overheating occurred. No mechanical heating or cooling.

    If the upper and lower comfort limits are too high or low (respectively) for you, an entirely ambient-conditioned house can be designed for a narrower range. Such a house would likely require primarily more thermal mass, but also perhaps more insulation, larger solar gains (for higher low limit), and/or greater ventilation cooling (for lower high limit).



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    M Keith Sharp
    Emeritus Professor
    Louisville KY
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  • 2.  RE: Pagosa Springs Ambient House performance for 2024

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 01-17-2025 11:56 PM

    Very nice. Stable. In real-estate it is location, location, location. In housing its insulation, insulation and insulation. 

    It is a shame that the building codes are so far short of these parameters, because it is the codes that drives the 99% of the NEW created housing. Builders build as fast as they can as as cheap as they can. They will go as low as they can in everyway. 

    Until the codes require that level of insulation, only the wealthy and of those them care about environment and happen to have a builder that promotes this rather then running the other direction, the majority will remain way behind where we need to be.

    Nice data set though....



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    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
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  • 3.  RE: Pagosa Springs Ambient House performance for 2024

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 01-18-2025 11:19 PM

    Yes, it all begins with insulation. Passive House does this part really well. But it is more than that. The other things are just enough solar gain, but not too much, sufficient thermal mass, and passive cooling.

    Yes, codes could make all the difference. It is encouraging that Passive House standards are being adopted in several states: (https://passivehousenetwork.org/codes/?srsltid=AfmBOooREbA5-1ZGHtYC3JeNEhXombU_xjEGmkA6bvwd0OtHu6UtqBx6) Still lots more progress to be made.

    PA is pointed out as having a critical mass of Passive House professionals: (https://zeroenergyproject.com/2023/05/16/top-policies-that-propel-passive-house-in-north-america/) so there are builders in your state who do it. 

    Houses like this should not be thought of as only for the wealthy. Like many other energy-saving technologies, they cost more up front, but pay back in the long run. Jim Riggins did a thorough job of quantifying costs for his house (see his recent article in Solar Today). The extra cost to offset almost all space heating and cooling and water heating was only 8% of the total cost of the house. Similar numbers date back to the passive solar houses of the 70's (Balcomb reported 4-8% extra to offset a smaller fraction of space conditioning alone).

    There are reasons why a modern Ambient House can be even more economical. Compared to the historic passive solar houses, such a house uses more insulation, but less concrete and fewer windows, which tend to be the expensive items. Entirely eliminating furnaces and heat pumps also saves money.



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    M Keith Sharp
    Emeritus Professor
    Louisville KY
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  • 4.  RE: Pagosa Springs Ambient House performance for 2024

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 01-20-2025 01:57 PM
    Edited by Timothy Mcbride 01-20-2025 02:04 PM

    Keith while thinking about your post and common house insulation, and weatherization, and doing some research, got to wondering about an App or device that can detect infrared thermal imaging with a standard smart phone for detecting infrared heat escape from walls; however, to achieve this functionality seems you need to purchase a dedicated infrared thermal imaging camera attachment for your phone, which then works with a specific app like "Seek Thermal" or "FLIR One" to visualize heat patterns and identify areas of heat loss on walls. Do you use or have any other less expensive technology for average homeowners and DIYers to detect heat loss along these lines? Otherwise the commercial infrared thermal imaging devices are very pricey. 



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    Timothy Mcbride
    CEOOwner
    Sol-Era R & D
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  • 5.  RE: Pagosa Springs Ambient House performance for 2024

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 01-21-2025 09:22 AM

    Timothy,

    We have to keep in mind that early IR cameras cost thousands of dollars (back when a thousand dollars was a LOT of money) and required a liquid nitrogen fill just prior to use. Today's technology is better and cheaper, and we don't have to bring a nitrogen tank along.

    The phone attachments look nice, but stand-alone cameras are available that are in some cases less expensive. I see some options for less than $100. That said, I don't have experience with the new IR cameras. If anyone has recommendations, I would be interested in hearing them.  

    I use a non-contact IR thermometer occasionally. It simply gives a temperature reading, and provides a convenient way to check temperature variations around the interior of the house.



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    M Keith Sharp
    Emeritus Professor
    Louisville KY
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  • 6.  RE: Pagosa Springs Ambient House performance for 2024

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 01-21-2025 10:55 AM

    Thanks Keith, We are ordering a few of these devices for cell phones, and some of the stand-alone type as well to do some testing. Yah, we were very reluctant to invest in the traditional  IR cameras as you mentioned, as preferred to just put that cost into commonsense weatherization instead,  but with the low cost of these new upcoming devices we are excited about launching an investigation.  Back in the day we would just use the human hand to feel along the walls as one can easy sense where the colder infiltrations occur. We will let you know how our experiments turn out. Thanks again for your post. 



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    Timothy Mcbride
    CEOOwner
    Sol-Era R & D
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  • 7.  RE: Pagosa Springs Ambient House performance for 2024

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 01-22-2025 10:31 AM
    You can get handheld IR Thermometers for $20 or less.  

    They just give you a measurement at a point (not a pretty 2D thermal "map"), but you can measure as many points as you like...and it won't cost thousands of dollars.

    Daniel Simon






  • 8.  RE: Pagosa Springs Ambient House performance for 2024

    Posted 01-22-2025 10:33 AM
    I want to emphasize Keith Sharp's point about IR non-contact thermometers.  You can buy one for under $30 and they are remarkably accurate and easy to use.  I have found lots of uses for it, including finding cold spots and leaks.
    Jim
    Retired engineer in Ohio
    10 kW solar system runs our house and cars.





  • 9.  RE: Pagosa Springs Ambient House performance for 2024

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 01-21-2025 11:52 AM
    Last year the Windsor, Massachusetts Green Committee had a question similar to the post by Timothy Mcbride.  We knew that an infrared camera, or the attachment for a cell phone, would be too expensive for many homeowners to obtain, for infrequent or one time usage.  The town library now has the IR attachment that will work with both types of cell phones.  The device worked well to check a couple of spots at my home.  This IR attachment is a good addition to our library, which for several years has had an electrical meter that can be used to determine how much energy or power a 120 volt AC plugin device uses.





  • 10.  RE: Pagosa Springs Ambient House performance for 2024

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 01-21-2025 12:45 PM

    Hi: Noticing conversations on IR tech and R-value dead zones. A middle ground solution between moving you hand along a stud space width, is an ordinary IR laser thermometer. Extremely cost effect. I would place it as a hybrid solution between full IR vid exposure and the old fashion "touch" temp identification. One aspect that holds true sometimes when carelessness on insulation has been practiced (Auh, no one will look under the rug) is that entire stud spaces will be skipped, as opposed to a few small careless misses on small spot locations (Outlet and switch box areas, etc.). A laser therm will find these pretty easily with a little presented skill upon use. And with enough patience and experience, you can even find the small ones, along with air inful spots.



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    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
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  • 11.  RE: Pagosa Springs Ambient House performance for 2024

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 01-21-2025 01:28 PM
    Edited by Timothy Mcbride 01-21-2025 01:41 PM

    Bill, Indeed~  They are packing so many features into these modern smart phones that sure enough in a few years the darn things will come standard with IR cameras as heating and cooling of shelters will become as important as a flashlight. The greatest advance towards these problems would be the modern insulation spray foams and sealants but as you mentioned  studs, joist, and rafters are typically wood which is not that good of an insulator, so the  Thermal barriers and house wraps are popular along with insulating sheathing with thermo tape.  All add up to be very expensive but over time very economical as heating & cooling is much cheaper especially in newer construction.  Nevertheless the big problem is older homes and buildings everywhere that are very inadequate when it comes HVAC- heating, ventilation, and air conditioning/cooling-  so we are stuck with trying to figure out how to better weatherize these older structures. That is where these devices such as your  IR laser thermometer,  IR cameras, and the like come in handy.  We have had older homes that may have been insulated well at first but insects, rodents, water leaks, rot you name it has deteriorated the thermo envelope and needs repaired which isn't easy in most cases.  Any technology that advances this cause is welcomed and hopefully better solutions will be developed in the future.  

    Lasers on Stud! 

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    Timothy Mcbride
    CEOOwner
    Sol-Era R & D
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