Everything Solar Forum

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

Hi Lester,

I respectfully disagree with your observation, but do acknowledge at least some of your points are valid.  I don't have an answer for the 30% Residential Energy Credit for homeowners who install solar and do not have taxable income, except that the credit carries forward to future tax years, indefinitely, so if you expect to have any tax liability in future years you can get the 30% back at that time. As for finance companies, I agree that most programs to finance solar (and many other things) are not very attractive when you dig down into the details. My view is that homeowners should be diligent in finding fair, transparent financing, and not let financing sales people or solar sales people hide the details of what the system actually costs and how much the financing costs.  Home Equity is usually the lowest cost option for a homeowner.

As far as expections concerning a solar installer helping you with a DIY project, I would ask what other construction/improvement project would you expect contractors to be open to helping a DIYer?  Some of us weigh in on forums like this, and have no problem spending some time educating potential customers about how solar works or how it is installed, etc, but if we are busy running a business, competing with other companies, having to meet payroll, and concerned about our reputation for quality systems that last a long time and that are safe, we really cannot afford to do much DIY consulting.

If you have been talking mainly to telemarketers or communicating thru online interfaces, maybe try locating a few smaller solar installation companies local to you and call them up and ask them to meet you face to face, and give them an opportunity to quote the install for you. If you have already procured all the equipment, it may already be too late, but if not, you may find they might work with you on some compromise, such as they design and install the system, but you handle site preparation, trenching, etc if that applies.

The worst result might be that you spend all this time and energy putting together the system and it doesn't work properly, and there is no warranty on key components, and nobody to help you make it right. If you spend 50% of the cost of a turnkey installed system, and it only provides 50% or less of the energy over it's life than the turnkey system, did you really save any money?

Best, Ken

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

Hi Lester,

I respectfully disagree with your observation, but do acknowledge at least some of your points are valid.  I don't have an answer for the 30% Residential Energy Credit for homeowners who install solar and do not have taxable income, except that the credit carries forward to future tax years, indefinitely, so if you expect to have any tax liability in future years you can get the 30% back at that time. As for finance companies, I agree that most programs to finance solar (and many other things) are not very attractive when you dig down into the details. My view is that homeowners should be diligent in finding fair, transparent financing, and not let financing sales people or solar sales people hide the details of what the system actually costs and how much the financing costs.  Home Equity is usually the lowest cost option for a homeowner.

As far as expections concerning a solar installer helping you with a DIY project, I would ask what other construction/improvement project would you expect contractors to be open to helping a DIYer?  Some of us weigh in on forums like this, and have no problem spending some time educating potential customers about how solar works or how it is installed, etc, but if we are busy running a business, competing with other companies, having to meet payroll, and concerned about our reputation for quality systems that last a long time and that are safe, we really cannot afford to do much DIY consulting.

If you have been talking mainly to telemarketers or communicating thru online interfaces, maybe try locating a few smaller solar installation companies local to you and call them up and ask them to meet you face to face, and give them an opportunity to quote the install for you. If you have already procured all the equipment, it may already be too late, but if not, you may find they might work with you on some compromise, such as they design and install the system, but you handle site preparation, trenching, etc if that applies.

The worst result might be that you spend all this time and energy putting together the system and it doesn't work properly, and there is no warranty on key components, and nobody to help you make it right. If you spend 50% of the cost of a turnkey installed system, and it only provides 50% or less of the energy over it's life than the turnkey system, did you really save any money?

Best, Ken

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

Lester, I agree that the tax credit incentive does not help families with low income, and we don't really have anything I am aware of to help low income families afford solar, like those with tax liability get from the tax credit. There may be some local solutions, like non-profit installation companies whose focus is on low income families, but we need more than that.  It is an inequity that I hope we as a country can solve.

As far as my company in Ohio, I am aware of only one customer that did not have tax liability and so at least initially could not take advantage of the 30% tax credit. However, if they do tap retirement money that triggers tax liability, they will be able to recover some money in future years.  And as for financing, I do not have a lending partner. As I stated, when I looked into a few of the programs out there, it was not a good deal for my customers, so I do not offer financing for residential solar.  My strong recommendation to customers is to use home equity financing if they have equity.  In Ohio we also have a state program called Ecolink, which basically reduces the interest rate by 2% for any loan processed by lenders in conjunction with the program. Most banks in Ohio participate.

Hi Lester,

I respectfully disagree with your observation, but do acknowledge at least some of your points are valid.  I don't have an answer for the 30% Residential Energy Credit for homeowners who install solar and do not have taxable income, except that the credit carries forward to future tax years, indefinitely, so if you expect to have any tax liability in future years you can get the 30% back at that time. As for finance companies, I agree that most programs to finance solar (and many other things) are not very attractive when you dig down into the details. My view is that homeowners should be diligent in finding fair, transparent financing, and not let financing sales people or solar sales people hide the details of what the system actually costs and how much the financing costs.  Home Equity is usually the lowest cost option for a homeowner.

As far as expections concerning a solar installer helping you with a DIY project, I would ask what other construction/improvement project would you expect contractors to be open to helping a DIYer?  Some of us weigh in on forums like this, and have no problem spending some time educating potential customers about how solar works or how it is installed, etc, but if we are busy running a business, competing with other companies, having to meet payroll, and concerned about our reputation for quality systems that last a long time and that are safe, we really cannot afford to do much DIY consulting.

If you have been talking mainly to telemarketers or communicating thru online interfaces, maybe try locating a few smaller solar installation companies local to you and call them up and ask them to meet you face to face, and give them an opportunity to quote the install for you. If you have already procured all the equipment, it may already be too late, but if not, you may find they might work with you on some compromise, such as they design and install the system, but you handle site preparation, trenching, etc if that applies.

The worst result might be that you spend all this time and energy putting together the system and it doesn't work properly, and there is no warranty on key components, and nobody to help you make it right. If you spend 50% of the cost of a turnkey installed system, and it only provides 50% or less of the energy over it's life than the turnkey system, did you really save any money?

Best, Ken

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

I am late to the party commenting on this. Just as a clarification, are you totally off grid doing the system or are you grid tie and wanting to make your "place" off grid capable?

A great site that's been around forever is:

https://www.builditsolar.com/

especially if you are doing it yourself.

Not knowing at this moment your answer to the above, if you are totally off grid, you tend to be viewed a step down. There are many reasons for this, some of them inherent in that functionality, some political and some Capitalistic.

I hope that site can help you from the technical side....

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

Thank you for the link. 

We are on the grid and currently grid dependent.  I want to have an off the grid battery backup system for when the grid goes down.  The inverter I bought does have a built in charger to top off the batteries from the grid but there will be no energy going back to the grid.  We had a week of no electric and no water this past winter.  

So, the current projects either in progress or in the planning stage:

Off grid solar with battery backup.

Wood stove.

Rainwater harvesting.

Water reuse.

I am late to the party commenting on this. Just as a clarification, are you totally off grid doing the system or are you grid tie and wanting to make your "place" off grid capable?

A great site that's been around forever is:

https://www.builditsolar.com/

especially if you are doing it yourself.

Not knowing at this moment your answer to the above, if you are totally off grid, you tend to be viewed a step down. There are many reasons for this, some of them inherent in that functionality, some political and some Capitalistic.

I hope that site can help you from the technical side....

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

Logical steps. If you don't mind too much, can you provide the exact inverter (Mfg., Model, etc.) that you have in your possession?

Thank you for the link. 

We are on the grid and currently grid dependent.  I want to have an off the grid battery backup system for when the grid goes down.  The inverter I bought does have a built in charger to top off the batteries from the grid but there will be no energy going back to the grid.  We had a week of no electric and no water this past winter.  

So, the current projects either in progress or in the planning stage:

Off grid solar with battery backup.

Wood stove.

Rainwater harvesting.

Water reuse.

I am late to the party commenting on this. Just as a clarification, are you totally off grid doing the system or are you grid tie and wanting to make your "place" off grid capable?

A great site that's been around forever is:

https://www.builditsolar.com/

especially if you are doing it yourself.

Not knowing at this moment your answer to the above, if you are totally off grid, you tend to be viewed a step down. There are many reasons for this, some of them inherent in that functionality, some political and some Capitalistic.

I hope that site can help you from the technical side....

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

EG4 6000EX 48HV off grid split all in one inverter and 3 - EG4 LL 48v batteries 

Logical steps. If you don't mind too much, can you provide the exact inverter (Mfg., Model, etc.) that you have in your possession?

Thank you for the link. 

We are on the grid and currently grid dependent.  I want to have an off the grid battery backup system for when the grid goes down.  The inverter I bought does have a built in charger to top off the batteries from the grid but there will be no energy going back to the grid.  We had a week of no electric and no water this past winter.  

So, the current projects either in progress or in the planning stage:

Off grid solar with battery backup.

Wood stove.

Rainwater harvesting.

Water reuse.

I am late to the party commenting on this. Just as a clarification, are you totally off grid doing the system or are you grid tie and wanting to make your "place" off grid capable?

A great site that's been around forever is:

https://www.builditsolar.com/

especially if you are doing it yourself.

Not knowing at this moment your answer to the above, if you are totally off grid, you tend to be viewed a step down. There are many reasons for this, some of them inherent in that functionality, some political and some Capitalistic.

I hope that site can help you from the technical side....

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

Hello again...happy 4th BTW.

The inverter you have CAN back feed to the grid at the 240VAC and 60HZ of USA electricity. They for one reason or another did not get it certified for the USA. They call it internationally certified. AN interesting distinction, implying it can handle USA elect but did not get it specifically USA certified by USA certifing entities. A bureaucratic limitation, not engineering. 

SO if you cleared it with your utility, you could back feed excess for net-metering.

Nice inverter BTW. Check bottom of page 25 last picture for back feed diagram user manual. Attached screen shot.

EG4 6000EX 48HV off grid split all in one inverter and 3 - EG4 LL 48v batteries 

Logical steps. If you don't mind too much, can you provide the exact inverter (Mfg., Model, etc.) that you have in your possession?

Thank you for the link. 

We are on the grid and currently grid dependent.  I want to have an off the grid battery backup system for when the grid goes down.  The inverter I bought does have a built in charger to top off the batteries from the grid but there will be no energy going back to the grid.  We had a week of no electric and no water this past winter.  

So, the current projects either in progress or in the planning stage:

Off grid solar with battery backup.

Wood stove.

Rainwater harvesting.

Water reuse.

I am late to the party commenting on this. Just as a clarification, are you totally off grid doing the system or are you grid tie and wanting to make your "place" off grid capable?

A great site that's been around forever is:

https://www.builditsolar.com/

especially if you are doing it yourself.

Not knowing at this moment your answer to the above, if you are totally off grid, you tend to be viewed a step down. There are many reasons for this, some of them inherent in that functionality, some political and some Capitalistic.

I hope that site can help you from the technical side....

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

Hello again...happy 4th BTW.

The inverter you have CAN back feed to the grid at the 240VAC and 60HZ of USA electricity. They for one reason or another did not get it certified for the USA. They call it internationally certified. AN interesting distinction, implying it can handle USA elect but did not get it specifically USA certified by USA certifing entities. A bureaucratic limitation, not engineering. 

SO if you cleared it with your utility, you could back feed excess for net-metering.

Nice inverter BTW. Check bottom of page 25 last picture for back feed diagram user manual. Attached screen shot.

EG4 6000EX 48HV off grid split all in one inverter and 3 - EG4 LL 48v batteries 

Logical steps. If you don't mind too much, can you provide the exact inverter (Mfg., Model, etc.) that you have in your possession?

Thank you for the link. 

We are on the grid and currently grid dependent.  I want to have an off the grid battery backup system for when the grid goes down.  The inverter I bought does have a built in charger to top off the batteries from the grid but there will be no energy going back to the grid.  We had a week of no electric and no water this past winter.  

So, the current projects either in progress or in the planning stage:

Off grid solar with battery backup.

Wood stove.

Rainwater harvesting.

Water reuse.

I am late to the party commenting on this. Just as a clarification, are you totally off grid doing the system or are you grid tie and wanting to make your "place" off grid capable?

A great site that's been around forever is:

https://www.builditsolar.com/

especially if you are doing it yourself.

Not knowing at this moment your answer to the above, if you are totally off grid, you tend to be viewed a step down. There are many reasons for this, some of them inherent in that functionality, some political and some Capitalistic.

I hope that site can help you from the technical side....

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

Lester, I know you have had trouble getting guidance on how to achieve your goals for affordable solar, but please understand, the way you are approaching this is not the best way and in fact may doo you to failure.  The steps for going solar are first to decide in you needs. Then start putting a design on paper, looking at available components, prices, and adjusting your design and refining it to fit your budget and your needs, and capturing requirements of the utility, the NEC, etc. Then ask for advice or do additionalt research to verify your design is solid.  Then after all those steps, is the proper time to start buying equipment.

That inverter you bought cannot be used in a hybrid or grid-tied system. Utilities will not let you connect an inverter that is not IEEE1547 compliant and UL 1741 Listed. So you will not be able to build a system with it that will help save you money on your electric bill. You can use it to  build a completely off-grid system, but it will be separate from the grid, i.e. you will be on grid with no solar until grid power is down, then you can switch over to your off-grid system via a transfer swith or some other mechanism. The result is you will spend a lot of money for one week of having power when the grid goes down. There are lots of other requirements like rapid shutdown, arc-fault detection, etc that you will need to consider as well when selecting components.

From what you have said previously what you really need is a hybrid system, that is grid-tied and saving you money all year by reducing your utility usage, and that can switch to grid-forming operation on loss of grid.  If I were you I would try and return that inverter.

This is another reason why solar installation companies do not want to work with DIYers, because they often want to buy components and then ask to fit them into a solution. It just does not work.

I highly recommend you pause, don't buy anything futher, look into what can be returned, and follow the steps I gave above to get a solid approach and detailed design before you proceed.

Hello again...happy 4th BTW.

The inverter you have CAN back feed to the grid at the 240VAC and 60HZ of USA electricity. They for one reason or another did not get it certified for the USA. They call it internationally certified. AN interesting distinction, implying it can handle USA elect but did not get it specifically USA certified by USA certifing entities. A bureaucratic limitation, not engineering. 

SO if you cleared it with your utility, you could back feed excess for net-metering.

Nice inverter BTW. Check bottom of page 25 last picture for back feed diagram user manual. Attached screen shot.

EG4 6000EX 48HV off grid split all in one inverter and 3 - EG4 LL 48v batteries 

Logical steps. If you don't mind too much, can you provide the exact inverter (Mfg., Model, etc.) that you have in your possession?

Thank you for the link. 

We are on the grid and currently grid dependent.  I want to have an off the grid battery backup system for when the grid goes down.  The inverter I bought does have a built in charger to top off the batteries from the grid but there will be no energy going back to the grid.  We had a week of no electric and no water this past winter.  

So, the current projects either in progress or in the planning stage:

Off grid solar with battery backup.

Wood stove.

Rainwater harvesting.

Water reuse.

I am late to the party commenting on this. Just as a clarification, are you totally off grid doing the system or are you grid tie and wanting to make your "place" off grid capable?

A great site that's been around forever is:

https://www.builditsolar.com/

especially if you are doing it yourself.

Not knowing at this moment your answer to the above, if you are totally off grid, you tend to be viewed a step down. There are many reasons for this, some of them inherent in that functionality, some political and some Capitalistic.

I hope that site can help you from the technical side....

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 6:45:00 PM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, I know you have had trouble getting guidance on how to achieve your goals for affordable solar, but please understand, the way you are approaching this is not the best way and in fact may doo you to failure.  The steps for going solar are first to decide in you needs. Then start putting a design on paper, looking at available components, prices, and adjusting your design and refining it to fit your budget and your needs, and capturing requirements of the utility, the NEC, etc. Then ask for advice or do additionalt research to verify your design is solid.  Then after all those steps, is the proper time to start buying equipment.

That inverter you bought cannot be used in a hybrid or grid-tied system. Utilities will not let you connect an inverter that is not IEEE1547 compliant and UL 1741 Listed. So you will not be able to build a system with it that will help save you money on your electric bill. You can use it to  build a completely off-grid system, but it will be separate from the grid, i.e. you will be on grid with no solar until grid power is down, then you can switch over to your off-grid system via a transfer swith or some other mechanism. The result is you will spend a lot of money for one week of having power when the grid goes down. There are lots of other requirements like rapid shutdown, arc-fault detection, etc that you will need to consider as well when selecting components.

From what you have said previously what you really need is a hybrid system, that is grid-tied and saving you money all year by reducing your utility usage, and that can switch to grid-forming operation on loss of grid.  If I were you I would try and return that inverter.

This is another reason why solar installation companies do not want to work with DIYers, because they often want to buy components and then ask to fit them into a solution. It just does not work.

I highly recommend you pause, don't buy anything futher, look into what can be returned, and follow the steps I gave above to get a solid approach and detailed design before you proceed.

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 01:30 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 3:00:00 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hello again...happy 4th BTW.

The inverter you have CAN back feed to the grid at the 240VAC and 60HZ of USA electricity. They for one reason or another did not get it certified for the USA. They call it internationally certified. AN interesting distinction, implying it can handle USA elect but did not get it specifically USA certified by USA certifing entities. A bureaucratic limitation, not engineering. 

SO if you cleared it with your utility, you could back feed excess for net-metering.

Nice inverter BTW. Check bottom of page 25 last picture for back feed diagram user manual. Attached screen shot.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 11:14 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

EG4 6000EX 48HV off grid split all in one inverter and 3 - EG4 LL 48v batteries 

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 10:43 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Logical steps. If you don't mind too much, can you provide the exact inverter (Mfg., Model, etc.) that you have in your possession?

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:50 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Thank you for the link. 

We are on the grid and currently grid dependent.  I want to have an off the grid battery backup system for when the grid goes down.  The inverter I bought does have a built in charger to top off the batteries from the grid but there will be no energy going back to the grid.  We had a week of no electric and no water this past winter.  

So, the current projects either in progress or in the planning stage:

Off grid solar with battery backup.

Wood stove.

Rainwater harvesting.

Water reuse.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-02-2023 10:15 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

I am late to the party commenting on this. Just as a clarification, are you totally off grid doing the system or are you grid tie and wanting to make your "place" off grid capable?

A great site that's been around forever is:

https://www.builditsolar.com/

especially if you are doing it yourself.

Not knowing at this moment your answer to the above, if you are totally off grid, you tend to be viewed a step down. There are many reasons for this, some of them inherent in that functionality, some political and some Capitalistic.

I hope that site can help you from the technical side....

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2023 10:24 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

------------------------------
lester germanio
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 6:45:00 PM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, I know you have had trouble getting guidance on how to achieve your goals for affordable solar, but please understand, the way you are approaching this is not the best way and in fact may doo you to failure.  The steps for going solar are first to decide in you needs. Then start putting a design on paper, looking at available components, prices, and adjusting your design and refining it to fit your budget and your needs, and capturing requirements of the utility, the NEC, etc. Then ask for advice or do additionalt research to verify your design is solid.  Then after all those steps, is the proper time to start buying equipment.

That inverter you bought cannot be used in a hybrid or grid-tied system. Utilities will not let you connect an inverter that is not IEEE1547 compliant and UL 1741 Listed. So you will not be able to build a system with it that will help save you money on your electric bill. You can use it to  build a completely off-grid system, but it will be separate from the grid, i.e. you will be on grid with no solar until grid power is down, then you can switch over to your off-grid system via a transfer swith or some other mechanism. The result is you will spend a lot of money for one week of having power when the grid goes down. There are lots of other requirements like rapid shutdown, arc-fault detection, etc that you will need to consider as well when selecting components.

From what you have said previously what you really need is a hybrid system, that is grid-tied and saving you money all year by reducing your utility usage, and that can switch to grid-forming operation on loss of grid.  If I were you I would try and return that inverter.

This is another reason why solar installation companies do not want to work with DIYers, because they often want to buy components and then ask to fit them into a solution. It just does not work.

I highly recommend you pause, don't buy anything futher, look into what can be returned, and follow the steps I gave above to get a solid approach and detailed design before you proceed.

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 01:30 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 3:00:00 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hello again...happy 4th BTW.

The inverter you have CAN back feed to the grid at the 240VAC and 60HZ of USA electricity. They for one reason or another did not get it certified for the USA. They call it internationally certified. AN interesting distinction, implying it can handle USA elect but did not get it specifically USA certified by USA certifing entities. A bureaucratic limitation, not engineering. 

SO if you cleared it with your utility, you could back feed excess for net-metering.

Nice inverter BTW. Check bottom of page 25 last picture for back feed diagram user manual. Attached screen shot.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 11:14 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

EG4 6000EX 48HV off grid split all in one inverter and 3 - EG4 LL 48v batteries 

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 10:43 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Logical steps. If you don't mind too much, can you provide the exact inverter (Mfg., Model, etc.) that you have in your possession?

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:50 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Thank you for the link. 

We are on the grid and currently grid dependent.  I want to have an off the grid battery backup system for when the grid goes down.  The inverter I bought does have a built in charger to top off the batteries from the grid but there will be no energy going back to the grid.  We had a week of no electric and no water this past winter.  

So, the current projects either in progress or in the planning stage:

Off grid solar with battery backup.

Wood stove.

Rainwater harvesting.

Water reuse.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-02-2023 10:15 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

I am late to the party commenting on this. Just as a clarification, are you totally off grid doing the system or are you grid tie and wanting to make your "place" off grid capable?

A great site that's been around forever is:

https://www.builditsolar.com/

especially if you are doing it yourself.

Not knowing at this moment your answer to the above, if you are totally off grid, you tend to be viewed a step down. There are many reasons for this, some of them inherent in that functionality, some political and some Capitalistic.

I hope that site can help you from the technical side....

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2023 10:24 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

------------------------------
lester germanio
------------------------------

Hi Again: This thread is getting obfuscatingly fuzzy.

First if I may, I want to shed all the financial "stuff" and focus on the engineering and what the utility will allow.

Questions:

1. Does your utility have net metering?
2. If not, do they prohibit back feeding of electricity, paid or unpaid?
3. If they prohibit any production to the grid, then and only then does you current "track" make engineering since. 
4. If they allow production to the grid, grid tie at a low level makes sense to reduce your grid load even without net-metering.              The trick is to size the grid-tie array to only produce as little production to them as possible, yet kill a majority of your load.
5. The reason I am asking this is I detected in your response about preventing back feed to be rather explicit, as if to not break rules...???....
6. I didn't look to see if your inverter has what I would call IEEE normal instantaneous disconnect. THAT IS A MUST from an engineering perspective. Having both your inverter active and the grid active at the same time, or yours active and connected to a down grid is a SHOW STOPPER!!. Now I am guessing that with the international cert for grid connect, it will not have a head on collision with any grid, but you need to specifically check that spec, and get your utilities approval, assuming they allow grid connect in the first place.

I would seriously try to keep the engineering decisions separate from money issues. It will not help the clarity of the end result if you don't.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:49 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 6:45:00 PM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, I know you have had trouble getting guidance on how to achieve your goals for affordable solar, but please understand, the way you are approaching this is not the best way and in fact may doo you to failure.  The steps for going solar are first to decide in you needs. Then start putting a design on paper, looking at available components, prices, and adjusting your design and refining it to fit your budget and your needs, and capturing requirements of the utility, the NEC, etc. Then ask for advice or do additionalt research to verify your design is solid.  Then after all those steps, is the proper time to start buying equipment.

That inverter you bought cannot be used in a hybrid or grid-tied system. Utilities will not let you connect an inverter that is not IEEE1547 compliant and UL 1741 Listed. So you will not be able to build a system with it that will help save you money on your electric bill. You can use it to  build a completely off-grid system, but it will be separate from the grid, i.e. you will be on grid with no solar until grid power is down, then you can switch over to your off-grid system via a transfer swith or some other mechanism. The result is you will spend a lot of money for one week of having power when the grid goes down. There are lots of other requirements like rapid shutdown, arc-fault detection, etc that you will need to consider as well when selecting components.

From what you have said previously what you really need is a hybrid system, that is grid-tied and saving you money all year by reducing your utility usage, and that can switch to grid-forming operation on loss of grid.  If I were you I would try and return that inverter.

This is another reason why solar installation companies do not want to work with DIYers, because they often want to buy components and then ask to fit them into a solution. It just does not work.

I highly recommend you pause, don't buy anything futher, look into what can be returned, and follow the steps I gave above to get a solid approach and detailed design before you proceed.

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 01:30 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 3:00:00 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hello again...happy 4th BTW.

The inverter you have CAN back feed to the grid at the 240VAC and 60HZ of USA electricity. They for one reason or another did not get it certified for the USA. They call it internationally certified. AN interesting distinction, implying it can handle USA elect but did not get it specifically USA certified by USA certifing entities. A bureaucratic limitation, not engineering. 

SO if you cleared it with your utility, you could back feed excess for net-metering.

Nice inverter BTW. Check bottom of page 25 last picture for back feed diagram user manual. Attached screen shot.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 11:14 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

EG4 6000EX 48HV off grid split all in one inverter and 3 - EG4 LL 48v batteries 

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 10:43 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Logical steps. If you don't mind too much, can you provide the exact inverter (Mfg., Model, etc.) that you have in your possession?

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:50 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Thank you for the link. 

We are on the grid and currently grid dependent.  I want to have an off the grid battery backup system for when the grid goes down.  The inverter I bought does have a built in charger to top off the batteries from the grid but there will be no energy going back to the grid.  We had a week of no electric and no water this past winter.  

So, the current projects either in progress or in the planning stage:

Off grid solar with battery backup.

Wood stove.

Rainwater harvesting.

Water reuse.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-02-2023 10:15 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

I am late to the party commenting on this. Just as a clarification, are you totally off grid doing the system or are you grid tie and wanting to make your "place" off grid capable?

A great site that's been around forever is:

https://www.builditsolar.com/

especially if you are doing it yourself.

Not knowing at this moment your answer to the above, if you are totally off grid, you tend to be viewed a step down. There are many reasons for this, some of them inherent in that functionality, some political and some Capitalistic.

I hope that site can help you from the technical side....

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2023 10:24 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

------------------------------
lester germanio
------------------------------

program 09  --  Grd  --  solar energy feed to grid configuration --  feed to grid disable (default setting)  --  Solar energy back feed to grid disable.  THIS (ENABLE) SETTING IS NOT CERTIFIED FOR THE UNITED STATES.   

Seems like I would need to change a default setting to back feed.  I will make sure and check that setting when I am up and running.  I do not want to back feed to the grid.  I only want to have a minimal back up battery system with PV.   I like the fact that it has a built in charger and I want to use it with the feed back disabled.  I currently only have 3000 watts of PV.   Probably not enough to sell any back to the utility.  Built in charger may get used on regular basis. 

Utility does allow net metering and credits at about 9 cents per kwh.  Not too bad since my average charge is about 12 cents per kwh.

Hi Again: This thread is getting obfuscatingly fuzzy.

First if I may, I want to shed all the financial "stuff" and focus on the engineering and what the utility will allow.

Questions:

1. Does your utility have net metering?
2. If not, do they prohibit back feeding of electricity, paid or unpaid?
3. If they prohibit any production to the grid, then and only then does you current "track" make engineering since. 
4. If they allow production to the grid, grid tie at a low level makes sense to reduce your grid load even without net-metering.              The trick is to size the grid-tie array to only produce as little production to them as possible, yet kill a majority of your load.
5. The reason I am asking this is I detected in your response about preventing back feed to be rather explicit, as if to not break rules...???....
6. I didn't look to see if your inverter has what I would call IEEE normal instantaneous disconnect. THAT IS A MUST from an engineering perspective. Having both your inverter active and the grid active at the same time, or yours active and connected to a down grid is a SHOW STOPPER!!. Now I am guessing that with the international cert for grid connect, it will not have a head on collision with any grid, but you need to specifically check that spec, and get your utilities approval, assuming they allow grid connect in the first place.

I would seriously try to keep the engineering decisions separate from money issues. It will not help the clarity of the end result if you don't.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:49 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 6:45:00 PM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, I know you have had trouble getting guidance on how to achieve your goals for affordable solar, but please understand, the way you are approaching this is not the best way and in fact may doo you to failure.  The steps for going solar are first to decide in you needs. Then start putting a design on paper, looking at available components, prices, and adjusting your design and refining it to fit your budget and your needs, and capturing requirements of the utility, the NEC, etc. Then ask for advice or do additionalt research to verify your design is solid.  Then after all those steps, is the proper time to start buying equipment.

That inverter you bought cannot be used in a hybrid or grid-tied system. Utilities will not let you connect an inverter that is not IEEE1547 compliant and UL 1741 Listed. So you will not be able to build a system with it that will help save you money on your electric bill. You can use it to  build a completely off-grid system, but it will be separate from the grid, i.e. you will be on grid with no solar until grid power is down, then you can switch over to your off-grid system via a transfer swith or some other mechanism. The result is you will spend a lot of money for one week of having power when the grid goes down. There are lots of other requirements like rapid shutdown, arc-fault detection, etc that you will need to consider as well when selecting components.

From what you have said previously what you really need is a hybrid system, that is grid-tied and saving you money all year by reducing your utility usage, and that can switch to grid-forming operation on loss of grid.  If I were you I would try and return that inverter.

This is another reason why solar installation companies do not want to work with DIYers, because they often want to buy components and then ask to fit them into a solution. It just does not work.

I highly recommend you pause, don't buy anything futher, look into what can be returned, and follow the steps I gave above to get a solid approach and detailed design before you proceed.

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 01:30 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 3:00:00 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hello again...happy 4th BTW.

The inverter you have CAN back feed to the grid at the 240VAC and 60HZ of USA electricity. They for one reason or another did not get it certified for the USA. They call it internationally certified. AN interesting distinction, implying it can handle USA elect but did not get it specifically USA certified by USA certifing entities. A bureaucratic limitation, not engineering. 

SO if you cleared it with your utility, you could back feed excess for net-metering.

Nice inverter BTW. Check bottom of page 25 last picture for back feed diagram user manual. Attached screen shot.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 11:14 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

EG4 6000EX 48HV off grid split all in one inverter and 3 - EG4 LL 48v batteries 

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 10:43 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Logical steps. If you don't mind too much, can you provide the exact inverter (Mfg., Model, etc.) that you have in your possession?

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:50 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Thank you for the link. 

We are on the grid and currently grid dependent.  I want to have an off the grid battery backup system for when the grid goes down.  The inverter I bought does have a built in charger to top off the batteries from the grid but there will be no energy going back to the grid.  We had a week of no electric and no water this past winter.  

So, the current projects either in progress or in the planning stage:

Off grid solar with battery backup.

Wood stove.

Rainwater harvesting.

Water reuse.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-02-2023 10:15 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

I am late to the party commenting on this. Just as a clarification, are you totally off grid doing the system or are you grid tie and wanting to make your "place" off grid capable?

A great site that's been around forever is:

https://www.builditsolar.com/

especially if you are doing it yourself.

Not knowing at this moment your answer to the above, if you are totally off grid, you tend to be viewed a step down. There are many reasons for this, some of them inherent in that functionality, some political and some Capitalistic.

I hope that site can help you from the technical side....

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2023 10:24 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

------------------------------
lester germanio
------------------------------

program 09  --  Grd  --  solar energy feed to grid configuration --  feed to grid disable (default setting)  --  Solar energy back feed to grid disable.  THIS (ENABLE) SETTING IS NOT CERTIFIED FOR THE UNITED STATES.   

Seems like I would need to change a default setting to back feed.  I will make sure and check that setting when I am up and running.  I do not want to back feed to the grid.  I only want to have a minimal back up battery system with PV.   I like the fact that it has a built in charger and I want to use it with the feed back disabled.  I currently only have 3000 watts of PV.   Probably not enough to sell any back to the utility.  Built in charger may get used on regular basis. 

Utility does allow net metering and credits at about 9 cents per kwh.  Not too bad since my average charge is about 12 cents per kwh.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 05:59 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hi Again: This thread is getting obfuscatingly fuzzy.

First if I may, I want to shed all the financial "stuff" and focus on the engineering and what the utility will allow.

Questions:

1. Does your utility have net metering?
2. If not, do they prohibit back feeding of electricity, paid or unpaid?
3. If they prohibit any production to the grid, then and only then does you current "track" make engineering since. 
4. If they allow production to the grid, grid tie at a low level makes sense to reduce your grid load even without net-metering.              The trick is to size the grid-tie array to only produce as little production to them as possible, yet kill a majority of your load.
5. The reason I am asking this is I detected in your response about preventing back feed to be rather explicit, as if to not break rules...???....
6. I didn't look to see if your inverter has what I would call IEEE normal instantaneous disconnect. THAT IS A MUST from an engineering perspective. Having both your inverter active and the grid active at the same time, or yours active and connected to a down grid is a SHOW STOPPER!!. Now I am guessing that with the international cert for grid connect, it will not have a head on collision with any grid, but you need to specifically check that spec, and get your utilities approval, assuming they allow grid connect in the first place.

I would seriously try to keep the engineering decisions separate from money issues. It will not help the clarity of the end result if you don't.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:49 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 6:45:00 PM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, I know you have had trouble getting guidance on how to achieve your goals for affordable solar, but please understand, the way you are approaching this is not the best way and in fact may doo you to failure.  The steps for going solar are first to decide in you needs. Then start putting a design on paper, looking at available components, prices, and adjusting your design and refining it to fit your budget and your needs, and capturing requirements of the utility, the NEC, etc. Then ask for advice or do additionalt research to verify your design is solid.  Then after all those steps, is the proper time to start buying equipment.

That inverter you bought cannot be used in a hybrid or grid-tied system. Utilities will not let you connect an inverter that is not IEEE1547 compliant and UL 1741 Listed. So you will not be able to build a system with it that will help save you money on your electric bill. You can use it to  build a completely off-grid system, but it will be separate from the grid, i.e. you will be on grid with no solar until grid power is down, then you can switch over to your off-grid system via a transfer swith or some other mechanism. The result is you will spend a lot of money for one week of having power when the grid goes down. There are lots of other requirements like rapid shutdown, arc-fault detection, etc that you will need to consider as well when selecting components.

From what you have said previously what you really need is a hybrid system, that is grid-tied and saving you money all year by reducing your utility usage, and that can switch to grid-forming operation on loss of grid.  If I were you I would try and return that inverter.

This is another reason why solar installation companies do not want to work with DIYers, because they often want to buy components and then ask to fit them into a solution. It just does not work.

I highly recommend you pause, don't buy anything futher, look into what can be returned, and follow the steps I gave above to get a solid approach and detailed design before you proceed.

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 01:30 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 3:00:00 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hello again...happy 4th BTW.

The inverter you have CAN back feed to the grid at the 240VAC and 60HZ of USA electricity. They for one reason or another did not get it certified for the USA. They call it internationally certified. AN interesting distinction, implying it can handle USA elect but did not get it specifically USA certified by USA certifing entities. A bureaucratic limitation, not engineering. 

SO if you cleared it with your utility, you could back feed excess for net-metering.

Nice inverter BTW. Check bottom of page 25 last picture for back feed diagram user manual. Attached screen shot.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 11:14 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

EG4 6000EX 48HV off grid split all in one inverter and 3 - EG4 LL 48v batteries 

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 10:43 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Logical steps. If you don't mind too much, can you provide the exact inverter (Mfg., Model, etc.) that you have in your possession?

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:50 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Thank you for the link. 

We are on the grid and currently grid dependent.  I want to have an off the grid battery backup system for when the grid goes down.  The inverter I bought does have a built in charger to top off the batteries from the grid but there will be no energy going back to the grid.  We had a week of no electric and no water this past winter.  

So, the current projects either in progress or in the planning stage:

Off grid solar with battery backup.

Wood stove.

Rainwater harvesting.

Water reuse.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-02-2023 10:15 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

I am late to the party commenting on this. Just as a clarification, are you totally off grid doing the system or are you grid tie and wanting to make your "place" off grid capable?

A great site that's been around forever is:

https://www.builditsolar.com/

especially if you are doing it yourself.

Not knowing at this moment your answer to the above, if you are totally off grid, you tend to be viewed a step down. There are many reasons for this, some of them inherent in that functionality, some political and some Capitalistic.

I hope that site can help you from the technical side....

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2023 10:24 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

------------------------------
lester germanio
------------------------------

Lester, is this a roof-mounted PV array, or ground mount? And where specifically will the inverter be installed, inside the home?

Also, are you in Austin Energy territory?  If so, they have a $2500 rebate for residential solar. But, the system must be grid connected, so that inverter cannot be used. You can buy a Schneider XW Pro for about $3,000, which is a much better inverter and is UL Listed and IEEE compliant for US grid. The EG4 website says that their ESS (batteries) may be compatible with the Schneider Xanbus protocol. You would need a charge controller as well to charge the batteries from the PV array, as the inverter can only charge batteriess from grid or generate AC from the batteries.  Also recommended is the Power Dist Panel (PDP) from Schneider, s couple of ckt breakers you will need, and also their MPPT DisconnectRS rapid shutdown controller/switch.  Yes you will spend more money up front, but you will get $2500 rebate, and you will get INCOME from the system when the sun is out.

The average US home uses 10,600 kWh of energy anually, which works oout to an average of about 1.2kW constantly all day all year. If you home is close to that average, you will at times use much more than that and at times use lesss htan that. When the sun is out and your home is only using 400W, then you will have kWh produced just wasted, assuming your batteries are full.  Why not get paid for it?

-Ken

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 07:41 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

program 09  --  Grd  --  solar energy feed to grid configuration --  feed to grid disable (default setting)  --  Solar energy back feed to grid disable.  THIS (ENABLE) SETTING IS NOT CERTIFIED FOR THE UNITED STATES.   

Seems like I would need to change a default setting to back feed.  I will make sure and check that setting when I am up and running.  I do not want to back feed to the grid.  I only want to have a minimal back up battery system with PV.   I like the fact that it has a built in charger and I want to use it with the feed back disabled.  I currently only have 3000 watts of PV.   Probably not enough to sell any back to the utility.  Built in charger may get used on regular basis. 

Utility does allow net metering and credits at about 9 cents per kwh.  Not too bad since my average charge is about 12 cents per kwh.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 05:59 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hi Again: This thread is getting obfuscatingly fuzzy.

First if I may, I want to shed all the financial "stuff" and focus on the engineering and what the utility will allow.

Questions:

1. Does your utility have net metering?
2. If not, do they prohibit back feeding of electricity, paid or unpaid?
3. If they prohibit any production to the grid, then and only then does you current "track" make engineering since. 
4. If they allow production to the grid, grid tie at a low level makes sense to reduce your grid load even without net-metering.              The trick is to size the grid-tie array to only produce as little production to them as possible, yet kill a majority of your load.
5. The reason I am asking this is I detected in your response about preventing back feed to be rather explicit, as if to not break rules...???....
6. I didn't look to see if your inverter has what I would call IEEE normal instantaneous disconnect. THAT IS A MUST from an engineering perspective. Having both your inverter active and the grid active at the same time, or yours active and connected to a down grid is a SHOW STOPPER!!. Now I am guessing that with the international cert for grid connect, it will not have a head on collision with any grid, but you need to specifically check that spec, and get your utilities approval, assuming they allow grid connect in the first place.

I would seriously try to keep the engineering decisions separate from money issues. It will not help the clarity of the end result if you don't.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:49 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 6:45:00 PM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, I know you have had trouble getting guidance on how to achieve your goals for affordable solar, but please understand, the way you are approaching this is not the best way and in fact may doo you to failure.  The steps for going solar are first to decide in you needs. Then start putting a design on paper, looking at available components, prices, and adjusting your design and refining it to fit your budget and your needs, and capturing requirements of the utility, the NEC, etc. Then ask for advice or do additionalt research to verify your design is solid.  Then after all those steps, is the proper time to start buying equipment.

That inverter you bought cannot be used in a hybrid or grid-tied system. Utilities will not let you connect an inverter that is not IEEE1547 compliant and UL 1741 Listed. So you will not be able to build a system with it that will help save you money on your electric bill. You can use it to  build a completely off-grid system, but it will be separate from the grid, i.e. you will be on grid with no solar until grid power is down, then you can switch over to your off-grid system via a transfer swith or some other mechanism. The result is you will spend a lot of money for one week of having power when the grid goes down. There are lots of other requirements like rapid shutdown, arc-fault detection, etc that you will need to consider as well when selecting components.

From what you have said previously what you really need is a hybrid system, that is grid-tied and saving you money all year by reducing your utility usage, and that can switch to grid-forming operation on loss of grid.  If I were you I would try and return that inverter.

This is another reason why solar installation companies do not want to work with DIYers, because they often want to buy components and then ask to fit them into a solution. It just does not work.

I highly recommend you pause, don't buy anything futher, look into what can be returned, and follow the steps I gave above to get a solid approach and detailed design before you proceed.

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 01:30 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 3:00:00 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hello again...happy 4th BTW.

The inverter you have CAN back feed to the grid at the 240VAC and 60HZ of USA electricity. They for one reason or another did not get it certified for the USA. They call it internationally certified. AN interesting distinction, implying it can handle USA elect but did not get it specifically USA certified by USA certifing entities. A bureaucratic limitation, not engineering. 

SO if you cleared it with your utility, you could back feed excess for net-metering.

Nice inverter BTW. Check bottom of page 25 last picture for back feed diagram user manual. Attached screen shot.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 11:14 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

EG4 6000EX 48HV off grid split all in one inverter and 3 - EG4 LL 48v batteries 

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 10:43 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Logical steps. If you don't mind too much, can you provide the exact inverter (Mfg., Model, etc.) that you have in your possession?

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:50 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Thank you for the link. 

We are on the grid and currently grid dependent.  I want to have an off the grid battery backup system for when the grid goes down.  The inverter I bought does have a built in charger to top off the batteries from the grid but there will be no energy going back to the grid.  We had a week of no electric and no water this past winter.  

So, the current projects either in progress or in the planning stage:

Off grid solar with battery backup.

Wood stove.

Rainwater harvesting.

Water reuse.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-02-2023 10:15 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

I am late to the party commenting on this. Just as a clarification, are you totally off grid doing the system or are you grid tie and wanting to make your "place" off grid capable?

A great site that's been around forever is:

https://www.builditsolar.com/

especially if you are doing it yourself.

Not knowing at this moment your answer to the above, if you are totally off grid, you tend to be viewed a step down. There are many reasons for this, some of them inherent in that functionality, some political and some Capitalistic.

I hope that site can help you from the technical side....

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2023 10:24 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

------------------------------
lester germanio
------------------------------

The estimates i got were in the $45,000 to $50,000. range for a grid connected with battery backup system.  Even with a $2500. rebate, I can't do that.  

I completely understand where all of you are coming from.  And how all of you are coming up with the same solution.  Lets say there is a chance that the context changes.  Your solution is based on saving money on the utility bill.  What happens if a proxy war participant pops an EMP over each coast and knocks out the grid?  Or something simple and a much more likely economic collapse happens and the grid folks opt not to supply their stuff without compensation?  

So what is your recommended solution for the nutjob client that just wants an affordable just in case off grid battery backup system to provide some minimal amount of power over the long term in the context that the grid and utility bills are no longer in the equation?  

Lester, is this a roof-mounted PV array, or ground mount? And where specifically will the inverter be installed, inside the home?

Also, are you in Austin Energy territory?  If so, they have a $2500 rebate for residential solar. But, the system must be grid connected, so that inverter cannot be used. You can buy a Schneider XW Pro for about $3,000, which is a much better inverter and is UL Listed and IEEE compliant for US grid. The EG4 website says that their ESS (batteries) may be compatible with the Schneider Xanbus protocol. You would need a charge controller as well to charge the batteries from the PV array, as the inverter can only charge batteriess from grid or generate AC from the batteries.  Also recommended is the Power Dist Panel (PDP) from Schneider, s couple of ckt breakers you will need, and also their MPPT DisconnectRS rapid shutdown controller/switch.  Yes you will spend more money up front, but you will get $2500 rebate, and you will get INCOME from the system when the sun is out.

The average US home uses 10,600 kWh of energy anually, which works oout to an average of about 1.2kW constantly all day all year. If you home is close to that average, you will at times use much more than that and at times use lesss htan that. When the sun is out and your home is only using 400W, then you will have kWh produced just wasted, assuming your batteries are full.  Why not get paid for it?

-Ken

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 07:41 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

program 09  --  Grd  --  solar energy feed to grid configuration --  feed to grid disable (default setting)  --  Solar energy back feed to grid disable.  THIS (ENABLE) SETTING IS NOT CERTIFIED FOR THE UNITED STATES.   

Seems like I would need to change a default setting to back feed.  I will make sure and check that setting when I am up and running.  I do not want to back feed to the grid.  I only want to have a minimal back up battery system with PV.   I like the fact that it has a built in charger and I want to use it with the feed back disabled.  I currently only have 3000 watts of PV.   Probably not enough to sell any back to the utility.  Built in charger may get used on regular basis. 

Utility does allow net metering and credits at about 9 cents per kwh.  Not too bad since my average charge is about 12 cents per kwh.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 05:59 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hi Again: This thread is getting obfuscatingly fuzzy.

First if I may, I want to shed all the financial "stuff" and focus on the engineering and what the utility will allow.

Questions:

1. Does your utility have net metering?
2. If not, do they prohibit back feeding of electricity, paid or unpaid?
3. If they prohibit any production to the grid, then and only then does you current "track" make engineering since. 
4. If they allow production to the grid, grid tie at a low level makes sense to reduce your grid load even without net-metering.              The trick is to size the grid-tie array to only produce as little production to them as possible, yet kill a majority of your load.
5. The reason I am asking this is I detected in your response about preventing back feed to be rather explicit, as if to not break rules...???....
6. I didn't look to see if your inverter has what I would call IEEE normal instantaneous disconnect. THAT IS A MUST from an engineering perspective. Having both your inverter active and the grid active at the same time, or yours active and connected to a down grid is a SHOW STOPPER!!. Now I am guessing that with the international cert for grid connect, it will not have a head on collision with any grid, but you need to specifically check that spec, and get your utilities approval, assuming they allow grid connect in the first place.

I would seriously try to keep the engineering decisions separate from money issues. It will not help the clarity of the end result if you don't.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:49 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 6:45:00 PM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, I know you have had trouble getting guidance on how to achieve your goals for affordable solar, but please understand, the way you are approaching this is not the best way and in fact may doo you to failure.  The steps for going solar are first to decide in you needs. Then start putting a design on paper, looking at available components, prices, and adjusting your design and refining it to fit your budget and your needs, and capturing requirements of the utility, the NEC, etc. Then ask for advice or do additionalt research to verify your design is solid.  Then after all those steps, is the proper time to start buying equipment.

That inverter you bought cannot be used in a hybrid or grid-tied system. Utilities will not let you connect an inverter that is not IEEE1547 compliant and UL 1741 Listed. So you will not be able to build a system with it that will help save you money on your electric bill. You can use it to  build a completely off-grid system, but it will be separate from the grid, i.e. you will be on grid with no solar until grid power is down, then you can switch over to your off-grid system via a transfer swith or some other mechanism. The result is you will spend a lot of money for one week of having power when the grid goes down. There are lots of other requirements like rapid shutdown, arc-fault detection, etc that you will need to consider as well when selecting components.

From what you have said previously what you really need is a hybrid system, that is grid-tied and saving you money all year by reducing your utility usage, and that can switch to grid-forming operation on loss of grid.  If I were you I would try and return that inverter.

This is another reason why solar installation companies do not want to work with DIYers, because they often want to buy components and then ask to fit them into a solution. It just does not work.

I highly recommend you pause, don't buy anything futher, look into what can be returned, and follow the steps I gave above to get a solid approach and detailed design before you proceed.

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 01:30 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 3:00:00 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hello again...happy 4th BTW.

The inverter you have CAN back feed to the grid at the 240VAC and 60HZ of USA electricity. They for one reason or another did not get it certified for the USA. They call it internationally certified. AN interesting distinction, implying it can handle USA elect but did not get it specifically USA certified by USA certifing entities. A bureaucratic limitation, not engineering. 

SO if you cleared it with your utility, you could back feed excess for net-metering.

Nice inverter BTW. Check bottom of page 25 last picture for back feed diagram user manual. Attached screen shot.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 11:14 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

EG4 6000EX 48HV off grid split all in one inverter and 3 - EG4 LL 48v batteries 

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 10:43 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Logical steps. If you don't mind too much, can you provide the exact inverter (Mfg., Model, etc.) that you have in your possession?

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:50 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Thank you for the link. 

We are on the grid and currently grid dependent.  I want to have an off the grid battery backup system for when the grid goes down.  The inverter I bought does have a built in charger to top off the batteries from the grid but there will be no energy going back to the grid.  We had a week of no electric and no water this past winter.  

So, the current projects either in progress or in the planning stage:

Off grid solar with battery backup.

Wood stove.

Rainwater harvesting.

Water reuse.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-02-2023 10:15 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

I am late to the party commenting on this. Just as a clarification, are you totally off grid doing the system or are you grid tie and wanting to make your "place" off grid capable?

A great site that's been around forever is:

https://www.builditsolar.com/

especially if you are doing it yourself.

Not knowing at this moment your answer to the above, if you are totally off grid, you tend to be viewed a step down. There are many reasons for this, some of them inherent in that functionality, some political and some Capitalistic.

I hope that site can help you from the technical side....

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2023 10:24 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

------------------------------
lester germanio
------------------------------

The point is the solution is exactly the same regarding either choice. Straight grid tie inverters VS hybrid inverters (Inverter/charger) are not that different in cost (Sense you said "Too much" above).

The batteries are the expensive part. If you had bought a Sol-Ark or Xantrex (Schneider Electric) hybrid inverter that would not have been a cert issue for the USA, you would have both the active back feed and battery backup as well, without utility complaint. It is not some Binary forced choice. It would be like ordering a burger, fries and a Coke but saying I don't want the fries, when basically you already paid for them. The Batteries are the fries but you should have gotten the burger with cheese.

The estimates i got were in the $45,000 to $50,000. range for a grid connected with battery backup system.  Even with a $2500. rebate, I can't do that.  

I completely understand where all of you are coming from.  And how all of you are coming up with the same solution.  Lets say there is a chance that the context changes.  Your solution is based on saving money on the utility bill.  What happens if a proxy war participant pops an EMP over each coast and knocks out the grid?  Or something simple and a much more likely economic collapse happens and the grid folks opt not to supply their stuff without compensation?  

So what is your recommended solution for the nutjob client that just wants an affordable just in case off grid battery backup system to provide some minimal amount of power over the long term in the context that the grid and utility bills are no longer in the equation?  

Lester, is this a roof-mounted PV array, or ground mount? And where specifically will the inverter be installed, inside the home?

Also, are you in Austin Energy territory?  If so, they have a $2500 rebate for residential solar. But, the system must be grid connected, so that inverter cannot be used. You can buy a Schneider XW Pro for about $3,000, which is a much better inverter and is UL Listed and IEEE compliant for US grid. The EG4 website says that their ESS (batteries) may be compatible with the Schneider Xanbus protocol. You would need a charge controller as well to charge the batteries from the PV array, as the inverter can only charge batteriess from grid or generate AC from the batteries.  Also recommended is the Power Dist Panel (PDP) from Schneider, s couple of ckt breakers you will need, and also their MPPT DisconnectRS rapid shutdown controller/switch.  Yes you will spend more money up front, but you will get $2500 rebate, and you will get INCOME from the system when the sun is out.

The average US home uses 10,600 kWh of energy anually, which works oout to an average of about 1.2kW constantly all day all year. If you home is close to that average, you will at times use much more than that and at times use lesss htan that. When the sun is out and your home is only using 400W, then you will have kWh produced just wasted, assuming your batteries are full.  Why not get paid for it?

-Ken

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 07:41 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

program 09  --  Grd  --  solar energy feed to grid configuration --  feed to grid disable (default setting)  --  Solar energy back feed to grid disable.  THIS (ENABLE) SETTING IS NOT CERTIFIED FOR THE UNITED STATES.   

Seems like I would need to change a default setting to back feed.  I will make sure and check that setting when I am up and running.  I do not want to back feed to the grid.  I only want to have a minimal back up battery system with PV.   I like the fact that it has a built in charger and I want to use it with the feed back disabled.  I currently only have 3000 watts of PV.   Probably not enough to sell any back to the utility.  Built in charger may get used on regular basis. 

Utility does allow net metering and credits at about 9 cents per kwh.  Not too bad since my average charge is about 12 cents per kwh.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 05:59 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hi Again: This thread is getting obfuscatingly fuzzy.

First if I may, I want to shed all the financial "stuff" and focus on the engineering and what the utility will allow.

Questions:

1. Does your utility have net metering?
2. If not, do they prohibit back feeding of electricity, paid or unpaid?
3. If they prohibit any production to the grid, then and only then does you current "track" make engineering since. 
4. If they allow production to the grid, grid tie at a low level makes sense to reduce your grid load even without net-metering.              The trick is to size the grid-tie array to only produce as little production to them as possible, yet kill a majority of your load.
5. The reason I am asking this is I detected in your response about preventing back feed to be rather explicit, as if to not break rules...???....
6. I didn't look to see if your inverter has what I would call IEEE normal instantaneous disconnect. THAT IS A MUST from an engineering perspective. Having both your inverter active and the grid active at the same time, or yours active and connected to a down grid is a SHOW STOPPER!!. Now I am guessing that with the international cert for grid connect, it will not have a head on collision with any grid, but you need to specifically check that spec, and get your utilities approval, assuming they allow grid connect in the first place.

I would seriously try to keep the engineering decisions separate from money issues. It will not help the clarity of the end result if you don't.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:49 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 6:45:00 PM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, I know you have had trouble getting guidance on how to achieve your goals for affordable solar, but please understand, the way you are approaching this is not the best way and in fact may doo you to failure.  The steps for going solar are first to decide in you needs. Then start putting a design on paper, looking at available components, prices, and adjusting your design and refining it to fit your budget and your needs, and capturing requirements of the utility, the NEC, etc. Then ask for advice or do additionalt research to verify your design is solid.  Then after all those steps, is the proper time to start buying equipment.

That inverter you bought cannot be used in a hybrid or grid-tied system. Utilities will not let you connect an inverter that is not IEEE1547 compliant and UL 1741 Listed. So you will not be able to build a system with it that will help save you money on your electric bill. You can use it to  build a completely off-grid system, but it will be separate from the grid, i.e. you will be on grid with no solar until grid power is down, then you can switch over to your off-grid system via a transfer swith or some other mechanism. The result is you will spend a lot of money for one week of having power when the grid goes down. There are lots of other requirements like rapid shutdown, arc-fault detection, etc that you will need to consider as well when selecting components.

From what you have said previously what you really need is a hybrid system, that is grid-tied and saving you money all year by reducing your utility usage, and that can switch to grid-forming operation on loss of grid.  If I were you I would try and return that inverter.

This is another reason why solar installation companies do not want to work with DIYers, because they often want to buy components and then ask to fit them into a solution. It just does not work.

I highly recommend you pause, don't buy anything futher, look into what can be returned, and follow the steps I gave above to get a solid approach and detailed design before you proceed.

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 01:30 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 3:00:00 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hello again...happy 4th BTW.

The inverter you have CAN back feed to the grid at the 240VAC and 60HZ of USA electricity. They for one reason or another did not get it certified for the USA. They call it internationally certified. AN interesting distinction, implying it can handle USA elect but did not get it specifically USA certified by USA certifing entities. A bureaucratic limitation, not engineering. 

SO if you cleared it with your utility, you could back feed excess for net-metering.

Nice inverter BTW. Check bottom of page 25 last picture for back feed diagram user manual. Attached screen shot.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 11:14 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

EG4 6000EX 48HV off grid split all in one inverter and 3 - EG4 LL 48v batteries 

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 10:43 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Logical steps. If you don't mind too much, can you provide the exact inverter (Mfg., Model, etc.) that you have in your possession?

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:50 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Thank you for the link. 

We are on the grid and currently grid dependent.  I want to have an off the grid battery backup system for when the grid goes down.  The inverter I bought does have a built in charger to top off the batteries from the grid but there will be no energy going back to the grid.  We had a week of no electric and no water this past winter.  

So, the current projects either in progress or in the planning stage:

Off grid solar with battery backup.

Wood stove.

Rainwater harvesting.

Water reuse.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-02-2023 10:15 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

I am late to the party commenting on this. Just as a clarification, are you totally off grid doing the system or are you grid tie and wanting to make your "place" off grid capable?

A great site that's been around forever is:

https://www.builditsolar.com/

especially if you are doing it yourself.

Not knowing at this moment your answer to the above, if you are totally off grid, you tend to be viewed a step down. There are many reasons for this, some of them inherent in that functionality, some political and some Capitalistic.

I hope that site can help you from the technical side....

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2023 10:24 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

------------------------------
lester germanio
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 7/5/2023 11:42:00 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

The point is the solution is exactly the same regarding either choice. Straight grid tie inverters VS hybrid inverters (Inverter/charger) are not that different in cost (Sense you said "Too much" above).

The batteries are the expensive part. If you had bought a Sol-Ark or Xantrex (Schneider Electric) hybrid inverter that would not have been a cert issue for the USA, you would have both the active back feed and battery backup as well, without utility complaint. It is not some Binary forced choice. It would be like ordering a burger, fries and a Coke but saying I don't want the fries, when basically you already paid for them. The Batteries are the fries but you should have gotten the burger with cheese.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-05-2023 08:19 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

The estimates i got were in the $45,000 to $50,000. range for a grid connected with battery backup system.  Even with a $2500. rebate, I can't do that.  

I completely understand where all of you are coming from.  And how all of you are coming up with the same solution.  Lets say there is a chance that the context changes.  Your solution is based on saving money on the utility bill.  What happens if a proxy war participant pops an EMP over each coast and knocks out the grid?  Or something simple and a much more likely economic collapse happens and the grid folks opt not to supply their stuff without compensation?  

So what is your recommended solution for the nutjob client that just wants an affordable just in case off grid battery backup system to provide some minimal amount of power over the long term in the context that the grid and utility bills are no longer in the equation?  

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-04-2023 11:44 AM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, is this a roof-mounted PV array, or ground mount? And where specifically will the inverter be installed, inside the home?

Also, are you in Austin Energy territory?  If so, they have a $2500 rebate for residential solar. But, the system must be grid connected, so that inverter cannot be used. You can buy a Schneider XW Pro for about $3,000, which is a much better inverter and is UL Listed and IEEE compliant for US grid. The EG4 website says that their ESS (batteries) may be compatible with the Schneider Xanbus protocol. You would need a charge controller as well to charge the batteries from the PV array, as the inverter can only charge batteriess from grid or generate AC from the batteries.  Also recommended is the Power Dist Panel (PDP) from Schneider, s couple of ckt breakers you will need, and also their MPPT DisconnectRS rapid shutdown controller/switch.  Yes you will spend more money up front, but you will get $2500 rebate, and you will get INCOME from the system when the sun is out.

The average US home uses 10,600 kWh of energy anually, which works oout to an average of about 1.2kW constantly all day all year. If you home is close to that average, you will at times use much more than that and at times use lesss htan that. When the sun is out and your home is only using 400W, then you will have kWh produced just wasted, assuming your batteries are full.  Why not get paid for it?

-Ken

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 07:41 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

program 09  --  Grd  --  solar energy feed to grid configuration --  feed to grid disable (default setting)  --  Solar energy back feed to grid disable.  THIS (ENABLE) SETTING IS NOT CERTIFIED FOR THE UNITED STATES.   

Seems like I would need to change a default setting to back feed.  I will make sure and check that setting when I am up and running.  I do not want to back feed to the grid.  I only want to have a minimal back up battery system with PV.   I like the fact that it has a built in charger and I want to use it with the feed back disabled.  I currently only have 3000 watts of PV.   Probably not enough to sell any back to the utility.  Built in charger may get used on regular basis. 

Utility does allow net metering and credits at about 9 cents per kwh.  Not too bad since my average charge is about 12 cents per kwh.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 05:59 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hi Again: This thread is getting obfuscatingly fuzzy.

First if I may, I want to shed all the financial "stuff" and focus on the engineering and what the utility will allow.

Questions:

1. Does your utility have net metering?
2. If not, do they prohibit back feeding of electricity, paid or unpaid?
3. If they prohibit any production to the grid, then and only then does you current "track" make engineering since. 
4. If they allow production to the grid, grid tie at a low level makes sense to reduce your grid load even without net-metering.              The trick is to size the grid-tie array to only produce as little production to them as possible, yet kill a majority of your load.
5. The reason I am asking this is I detected in your response about preventing back feed to be rather explicit, as if to not break rules...???....
6. I didn't look to see if your inverter has what I would call IEEE normal instantaneous disconnect. THAT IS A MUST from an engineering perspective. Having both your inverter active and the grid active at the same time, or yours active and connected to a down grid is a SHOW STOPPER!!. Now I am guessing that with the international cert for grid connect, it will not have a head on collision with any grid, but you need to specifically check that spec, and get your utilities approval, assuming they allow grid connect in the first place.

I would seriously try to keep the engineering decisions separate from money issues. It will not help the clarity of the end result if you don't.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:49 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 6:45:00 PM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, I know you have had trouble getting guidance on how to achieve your goals for affordable solar, but please understand, the way you are approaching this is not the best way and in fact may doo you to failure.  The steps for going solar are first to decide in you needs. Then start putting a design on paper, looking at available components, prices, and adjusting your design and refining it to fit your budget and your needs, and capturing requirements of the utility, the NEC, etc. Then ask for advice or do additionalt research to verify your design is solid.  Then after all those steps, is the proper time to start buying equipment.

That inverter you bought cannot be used in a hybrid or grid-tied system. Utilities will not let you connect an inverter that is not IEEE1547 compliant and UL 1741 Listed. So you will not be able to build a system with it that will help save you money on your electric bill. You can use it to  build a completely off-grid system, but it will be separate from the grid, i.e. you will be on grid with no solar until grid power is down, then you can switch over to your off-grid system via a transfer swith or some other mechanism. The result is you will spend a lot of money for one week of having power when the grid goes down. There are lots of other requirements like rapid shutdown, arc-fault detection, etc that you will need to consider as well when selecting components.

From what you have said previously what you really need is a hybrid system, that is grid-tied and saving you money all year by reducing your utility usage, and that can switch to grid-forming operation on loss of grid.  If I were you I would try and return that inverter.

This is another reason why solar installation companies do not want to work with DIYers, because they often want to buy components and then ask to fit them into a solution. It just does not work.

I highly recommend you pause, don't buy anything futher, look into what can be returned, and follow the steps I gave above to get a solid approach and detailed design before you proceed.

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 01:30 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 3:00:00 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hello again...happy 4th BTW.

The inverter you have CAN back feed to the grid at the 240VAC and 60HZ of USA electricity. They for one reason or another did not get it certified for the USA. They call it internationally certified. AN interesting distinction, implying it can handle USA elect but did not get it specifically USA certified by USA certifing entities. A bureaucratic limitation, not engineering. 

SO if you cleared it with your utility, you could back feed excess for net-metering.

Nice inverter BTW. Check bottom of page 25 last picture for back feed diagram user manual. Attached screen shot.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 11:14 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

EG4 6000EX 48HV off grid split all in one inverter and 3 - EG4 LL 48v batteries 

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 10:43 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Logical steps. If you don't mind too much, can you provide the exact inverter (Mfg., Model, etc.) that you have in your possession?

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:50 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Thank you for the link. 

We are on the grid and currently grid dependent.  I want to have an off the grid battery backup system for when the grid goes down.  The inverter I bought does have a built in charger to top off the batteries from the grid but there will be no energy going back to the grid.  We had a week of no electric and no water this past winter.  

So, the current projects either in progress or in the planning stage:

Off grid solar with battery backup.

Wood stove.

Rainwater harvesting.

Water reuse.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-02-2023 10:15 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

I am late to the party commenting on this. Just as a clarification, are you totally off grid doing the system or are you grid tie and wanting to make your "place" off grid capable?

A great site that's been around forever is:

https://www.builditsolar.com/

especially if you are doing it yourself.

Not knowing at this moment your answer to the above, if you are totally off grid, you tend to be viewed a step down. There are many reasons for this, some of them inherent in that functionality, some political and some Capitalistic.

I hope that site can help you from the technical side....

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2023 10:24 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

------------------------------
lester germanio
------------------------------

OK. SO you already have the cheese on the side. Then you should be fine. You can parallel the two. But the connections for two separate using AC coupling is tricky because there will be no way to regulate the power from the grid tie to the batteries in a grid down scenario. When the power fails, you will have to turn off the grid tie to prevent battery overcharge. Now that said, there will be those that will tell you that you can use battery max voltage settings to hold the "overcharge" at bay. Practically speaking, is is not a good idea, especially with Lithium batteries and BLM's. That's where the combined inverter/charger/back feed has value. 

The way I have mine setup is the grid tie is AC coupled to the Xantrex, but they really do not "get along" in grid out operation. SO I have my barn array feed the batteries through a 6KW charge controller and I turn off the grid tie so the whole system remains stable when the grid is down.

But you need allot of electrical design knowledge to get that whole thing right, along with the practical skills of installation. Additionally, you had better ask your utility if they require certified installers or can you use outside certification (Inspectors) to pass their requirements. If the utility requires certified solar installers, you are screwed from any grid tie aspect.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-05-2023 09:09 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/5/2023 11:42:00 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

The point is the solution is exactly the same regarding either choice. Straight grid tie inverters VS hybrid inverters (Inverter/charger) are not that different in cost (Sense you said "Too much" above).

The batteries are the expensive part. If you had bought a Sol-Ark or Xantrex (Schneider Electric) hybrid inverter that would not have been a cert issue for the USA, you would have both the active back feed and battery backup as well, without utility complaint. It is not some Binary forced choice. It would be like ordering a burger, fries and a Coke but saying I don't want the fries, when basically you already paid for them. The Batteries are the fries but you should have gotten the burger with cheese.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-05-2023 08:19 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

The estimates i got were in the $45,000 to $50,000. range for a grid connected with battery backup system.  Even with a $2500. rebate, I can't do that.  

I completely understand where all of you are coming from.  And how all of you are coming up with the same solution.  Lets say there is a chance that the context changes.  Your solution is based on saving money on the utility bill.  What happens if a proxy war participant pops an EMP over each coast and knocks out the grid?  Or something simple and a much more likely economic collapse happens and the grid folks opt not to supply their stuff without compensation?  

So what is your recommended solution for the nutjob client that just wants an affordable just in case off grid battery backup system to provide some minimal amount of power over the long term in the context that the grid and utility bills are no longer in the equation?  

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-04-2023 11:44 AM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, is this a roof-mounted PV array, or ground mount? And where specifically will the inverter be installed, inside the home?

Also, are you in Austin Energy territory?  If so, they have a $2500 rebate for residential solar. But, the system must be grid connected, so that inverter cannot be used. You can buy a Schneider XW Pro for about $3,000, which is a much better inverter and is UL Listed and IEEE compliant for US grid. The EG4 website says that their ESS (batteries) may be compatible with the Schneider Xanbus protocol. You would need a charge controller as well to charge the batteries from the PV array, as the inverter can only charge batteriess from grid or generate AC from the batteries.  Also recommended is the Power Dist Panel (PDP) from Schneider, s couple of ckt breakers you will need, and also their MPPT DisconnectRS rapid shutdown controller/switch.  Yes you will spend more money up front, but you will get $2500 rebate, and you will get INCOME from the system when the sun is out.

The average US home uses 10,600 kWh of energy anually, which works oout to an average of about 1.2kW constantly all day all year. If you home is close to that average, you will at times use much more than that and at times use lesss htan that. When the sun is out and your home is only using 400W, then you will have kWh produced just wasted, assuming your batteries are full.  Why not get paid for it?

-Ken

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 07:41 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

program 09  --  Grd  --  solar energy feed to grid configuration --  feed to grid disable (default setting)  --  Solar energy back feed to grid disable.  THIS (ENABLE) SETTING IS NOT CERTIFIED FOR THE UNITED STATES.   

Seems like I would need to change a default setting to back feed.  I will make sure and check that setting when I am up and running.  I do not want to back feed to the grid.  I only want to have a minimal back up battery system with PV.   I like the fact that it has a built in charger and I want to use it with the feed back disabled.  I currently only have 3000 watts of PV.   Probably not enough to sell any back to the utility.  Built in charger may get used on regular basis. 

Utility does allow net metering and credits at about 9 cents per kwh.  Not too bad since my average charge is about 12 cents per kwh.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 05:59 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hi Again: This thread is getting obfuscatingly fuzzy.

First if I may, I want to shed all the financial "stuff" and focus on the engineering and what the utility will allow.

Questions:

1. Does your utility have net metering?
2. If not, do they prohibit back feeding of electricity, paid or unpaid?
3. If they prohibit any production to the grid, then and only then does you current "track" make engineering since. 
4. If they allow production to the grid, grid tie at a low level makes sense to reduce your grid load even without net-metering.              The trick is to size the grid-tie array to only produce as little production to them as possible, yet kill a majority of your load.
5. The reason I am asking this is I detected in your response about preventing back feed to be rather explicit, as if to not break rules...???....
6. I didn't look to see if your inverter has what I would call IEEE normal instantaneous disconnect. THAT IS A MUST from an engineering perspective. Having both your inverter active and the grid active at the same time, or yours active and connected to a down grid is a SHOW STOPPER!!. Now I am guessing that with the international cert for grid connect, it will not have a head on collision with any grid, but you need to specifically check that spec, and get your utilities approval, assuming they allow grid connect in the first place.

I would seriously try to keep the engineering decisions separate from money issues. It will not help the clarity of the end result if you don't.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:49 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 6:45:00 PM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, I know you have had trouble getting guidance on how to achieve your goals for affordable solar, but please understand, the way you are approaching this is not the best way and in fact may doo you to failure.  The steps for going solar are first to decide in you needs. Then start putting a design on paper, looking at available components, prices, and adjusting your design and refining it to fit your budget and your needs, and capturing requirements of the utility, the NEC, etc. Then ask for advice or do additionalt research to verify your design is solid.  Then after all those steps, is the proper time to start buying equipment.

That inverter you bought cannot be used in a hybrid or grid-tied system. Utilities will not let you connect an inverter that is not IEEE1547 compliant and UL 1741 Listed. So you will not be able to build a system with it that will help save you money on your electric bill. You can use it to  build a completely off-grid system, but it will be separate from the grid, i.e. you will be on grid with no solar until grid power is down, then you can switch over to your off-grid system via a transfer swith or some other mechanism. The result is you will spend a lot of money for one week of having power when the grid goes down. There are lots of other requirements like rapid shutdown, arc-fault detection, etc that you will need to consider as well when selecting components.

From what you have said previously what you really need is a hybrid system, that is grid-tied and saving you money all year by reducing your utility usage, and that can switch to grid-forming operation on loss of grid.  If I were you I would try and return that inverter.

This is another reason why solar installation companies do not want to work with DIYers, because they often want to buy components and then ask to fit them into a solution. It just does not work.

I highly recommend you pause, don't buy anything futher, look into what can be returned, and follow the steps I gave above to get a solid approach and detailed design before you proceed.

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 01:30 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 3:00:00 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hello again...happy 4th BTW.

The inverter you have CAN back feed to the grid at the 240VAC and 60HZ of USA electricity. They for one reason or another did not get it certified for the USA. They call it internationally certified. AN interesting distinction, implying it can handle USA elect but did not get it specifically USA certified by USA certifing entities. A bureaucratic limitation, not engineering. 

SO if you cleared it with your utility, you could back feed excess for net-metering.

Nice inverter BTW. Check bottom of page 25 last picture for back feed diagram user manual. Attached screen shot.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 11:14 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

EG4 6000EX 48HV off grid split all in one inverter and 3 - EG4 LL 48v batteries 

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 10:43 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Logical steps. If you don't mind too much, can you provide the exact inverter (Mfg., Model, etc.) that you have in your possession?

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:50 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Thank you for the link. 

We are on the grid and currently grid dependent.  I want to have an off the grid battery backup system for when the grid goes down.  The inverter I bought does have a built in charger to top off the batteries from the grid but there will be no energy going back to the grid.  We had a week of no electric and no water this past winter.  

So, the current projects either in progress or in the planning stage:

Off grid solar with battery backup.

Wood stove.

Rainwater harvesting.

Water reuse.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-02-2023 10:15 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

I am late to the party commenting on this. Just as a clarification, are you totally off grid doing the system or are you grid tie and wanting to make your "place" off grid capable?

A great site that's been around forever is:

https://www.builditsolar.com/

especially if you are doing it yourself.

Not knowing at this moment your answer to the above, if you are totally off grid, you tend to be viewed a step down. There are many reasons for this, some of them inherent in that functionality, some political and some Capitalistic.

I hope that site can help you from the technical side....

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2023 10:24 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

------------------------------
lester germanio
------------------------------

OK. SO you already have the cheese on the side. Then you should be fine. You can parallel the two. But the connections for two separate using AC coupling is tricky because there will be no way to regulate the power from the grid tie to the batteries in a grid down scenario. When the power fails, you will have to turn off the grid tie to prevent battery overcharge. Now that said, there will be those that will tell you that you can use battery max voltage settings to hold the "overcharge" at bay. Practically speaking, is is not a good idea, especially with Lithium batteries and BLM's. That's where the combined inverter/charger/back feed has value. 

The way I have mine setup is the grid tie is AC coupled to the Xantrex, but they really do not "get along" in grid out operation. SO I have my barn array feed the batteries through a 6KW charge controller and I turn off the grid tie so the whole system remains stable when the grid is down.

But you need allot of electrical design knowledge to get that whole thing right, along with the practical skills of installation. Additionally, you had better ask your utility if they require certified installers or can you use outside certification (Inspectors) to pass their requirements. If the utility requires certified solar installers, you are screwed from any grid tie aspect.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-05-2023 09:09 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/5/2023 11:42:00 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

The point is the solution is exactly the same regarding either choice. Straight grid tie inverters VS hybrid inverters (Inverter/charger) are not that different in cost (Sense you said "Too much" above).

The batteries are the expensive part. If you had bought a Sol-Ark or Xantrex (Schneider Electric) hybrid inverter that would not have been a cert issue for the USA, you would have both the active back feed and battery backup as well, without utility complaint. It is not some Binary forced choice. It would be like ordering a burger, fries and a Coke but saying I don't want the fries, when basically you already paid for them. The Batteries are the fries but you should have gotten the burger with cheese.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-05-2023 08:19 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

The estimates i got were in the $45,000 to $50,000. range for a grid connected with battery backup system.  Even with a $2500. rebate, I can't do that.  

I completely understand where all of you are coming from.  And how all of you are coming up with the same solution.  Lets say there is a chance that the context changes.  Your solution is based on saving money on the utility bill.  What happens if a proxy war participant pops an EMP over each coast and knocks out the grid?  Or something simple and a much more likely economic collapse happens and the grid folks opt not to supply their stuff without compensation?  

So what is your recommended solution for the nutjob client that just wants an affordable just in case off grid battery backup system to provide some minimal amount of power over the long term in the context that the grid and utility bills are no longer in the equation?  

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-04-2023 11:44 AM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, is this a roof-mounted PV array, or ground mount? And where specifically will the inverter be installed, inside the home?

Also, are you in Austin Energy territory?  If so, they have a $2500 rebate for residential solar. But, the system must be grid connected, so that inverter cannot be used. You can buy a Schneider XW Pro for about $3,000, which is a much better inverter and is UL Listed and IEEE compliant for US grid. The EG4 website says that their ESS (batteries) may be compatible with the Schneider Xanbus protocol. You would need a charge controller as well to charge the batteries from the PV array, as the inverter can only charge batteriess from grid or generate AC from the batteries.  Also recommended is the Power Dist Panel (PDP) from Schneider, s couple of ckt breakers you will need, and also their MPPT DisconnectRS rapid shutdown controller/switch.  Yes you will spend more money up front, but you will get $2500 rebate, and you will get INCOME from the system when the sun is out.

The average US home uses 10,600 kWh of energy anually, which works oout to an average of about 1.2kW constantly all day all year. If you home is close to that average, you will at times use much more than that and at times use lesss htan that. When the sun is out and your home is only using 400W, then you will have kWh produced just wasted, assuming your batteries are full.  Why not get paid for it?

-Ken

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 07:41 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

program 09  --  Grd  --  solar energy feed to grid configuration --  feed to grid disable (default setting)  --  Solar energy back feed to grid disable.  THIS (ENABLE) SETTING IS NOT CERTIFIED FOR THE UNITED STATES.   

Seems like I would need to change a default setting to back feed.  I will make sure and check that setting when I am up and running.  I do not want to back feed to the grid.  I only want to have a minimal back up battery system with PV.   I like the fact that it has a built in charger and I want to use it with the feed back disabled.  I currently only have 3000 watts of PV.   Probably not enough to sell any back to the utility.  Built in charger may get used on regular basis. 

Utility does allow net metering and credits at about 9 cents per kwh.  Not too bad since my average charge is about 12 cents per kwh.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 05:59 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hi Again: This thread is getting obfuscatingly fuzzy.

First if I may, I want to shed all the financial "stuff" and focus on the engineering and what the utility will allow.

Questions:

1. Does your utility have net metering?
2. If not, do they prohibit back feeding of electricity, paid or unpaid?
3. If they prohibit any production to the grid, then and only then does you current "track" make engineering since. 
4. If they allow production to the grid, grid tie at a low level makes sense to reduce your grid load even without net-metering.              The trick is to size the grid-tie array to only produce as little production to them as possible, yet kill a majority of your load.
5. The reason I am asking this is I detected in your response about preventing back feed to be rather explicit, as if to not break rules...???....
6. I didn't look to see if your inverter has what I would call IEEE normal instantaneous disconnect. THAT IS A MUST from an engineering perspective. Having both your inverter active and the grid active at the same time, or yours active and connected to a down grid is a SHOW STOPPER!!. Now I am guessing that with the international cert for grid connect, it will not have a head on collision with any grid, but you need to specifically check that spec, and get your utilities approval, assuming they allow grid connect in the first place.

I would seriously try to keep the engineering decisions separate from money issues. It will not help the clarity of the end result if you don't.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:49 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 6:45:00 PM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, I know you have had trouble getting guidance on how to achieve your goals for affordable solar, but please understand, the way you are approaching this is not the best way and in fact may doo you to failure.  The steps for going solar are first to decide in you needs. Then start putting a design on paper, looking at available components, prices, and adjusting your design and refining it to fit your budget and your needs, and capturing requirements of the utility, the NEC, etc. Then ask for advice or do additionalt research to verify your design is solid.  Then after all those steps, is the proper time to start buying equipment.

That inverter you bought cannot be used in a hybrid or grid-tied system. Utilities will not let you connect an inverter that is not IEEE1547 compliant and UL 1741 Listed. So you will not be able to build a system with it that will help save you money on your electric bill. You can use it to  build a completely off-grid system, but it will be separate from the grid, i.e. you will be on grid with no solar until grid power is down, then you can switch over to your off-grid system via a transfer swith or some other mechanism. The result is you will spend a lot of money for one week of having power when the grid goes down. There are lots of other requirements like rapid shutdown, arc-fault detection, etc that you will need to consider as well when selecting components.

From what you have said previously what you really need is a hybrid system, that is grid-tied and saving you money all year by reducing your utility usage, and that can switch to grid-forming operation on loss of grid.  If I were you I would try and return that inverter.

This is another reason why solar installation companies do not want to work with DIYers, because they often want to buy components and then ask to fit them into a solution. It just does not work.

I highly recommend you pause, don't buy anything futher, look into what can be returned, and follow the steps I gave above to get a solid approach and detailed design before you proceed.

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 01:30 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 3:00:00 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hello again...happy 4th BTW.

The inverter you have CAN back feed to the grid at the 240VAC and 60HZ of USA electricity. They for one reason or another did not get it certified for the USA. They call it internationally certified. AN interesting distinction, implying it can handle USA elect but did not get it specifically USA certified by USA certifing entities. A bureaucratic limitation, not engineering. 

SO if you cleared it with your utility, you could back feed excess for net-metering.

Nice inverter BTW. Check bottom of page 25 last picture for back feed diagram user manual. Attached screen shot.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 11:14 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

EG4 6000EX 48HV off grid split all in one inverter and 3 - EG4 LL 48v batteries 

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 10:43 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Logical steps. If you don't mind too much, can you provide the exact inverter (Mfg., Model, etc.) that you have in your possession?

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:50 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Thank you for the link. 

We are on the grid and currently grid dependent.  I want to have an off the grid battery backup system for when the grid goes down.  The inverter I bought does have a built in charger to top off the batteries from the grid but there will be no energy going back to the grid.  We had a week of no electric and no water this past winter.  

So, the current projects either in progress or in the planning stage:

Off grid solar with battery backup.

Wood stove.

Rainwater harvesting.

Water reuse.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-02-2023 10:15 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

I am late to the party commenting on this. Just as a clarification, are you totally off grid doing the system or are you grid tie and wanting to make your "place" off grid capable?

A great site that's been around forever is:

https://www.builditsolar.com/

especially if you are doing it yourself.

Not knowing at this moment your answer to the above, if you are totally off grid, you tend to be viewed a step down. There are many reasons for this, some of them inherent in that functionality, some political and some Capitalistic.

I hope that site can help you from the technical side....

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2023 10:24 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

------------------------------
lester germanio
------------------------------

OK. SO you already have the cheese on the side. Then you should be fine. You can parallel the two. But the connections for two separate using AC coupling is tricky because there will be no way to regulate the power from the grid tie to the batteries in a grid down scenario. When the power fails, you will have to turn off the grid tie to prevent battery overcharge. Now that said, there will be those that will tell you that you can use battery max voltage settings to hold the "overcharge" at bay. Practically speaking, is is not a good idea, especially with Lithium batteries and BLM's. That's where the combined inverter/charger/back feed has value. 

The way I have mine setup is the grid tie is AC coupled to the Xantrex, but they really do not "get along" in grid out operation. SO I have my barn array feed the batteries through a 6KW charge controller and I turn off the grid tie so the whole system remains stable when the grid is down.

But you need allot of electrical design knowledge to get that whole thing right, along with the practical skills of installation. Additionally, you had better ask your utility if they require certified installers or can you use outside certification (Inspectors) to pass their requirements. If the utility requires certified solar installers, you are screwed from any grid tie aspect.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-05-2023 09:09 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/5/2023 11:42:00 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

The point is the solution is exactly the same regarding either choice. Straight grid tie inverters VS hybrid inverters (Inverter/charger) are not that different in cost (Sense you said "Too much" above).

The batteries are the expensive part. If you had bought a Sol-Ark or Xantrex (Schneider Electric) hybrid inverter that would not have been a cert issue for the USA, you would have both the active back feed and battery backup as well, without utility complaint. It is not some Binary forced choice. It would be like ordering a burger, fries and a Coke but saying I don't want the fries, when basically you already paid for them. The Batteries are the fries but you should have gotten the burger with cheese.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-05-2023 08:19 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

The estimates i got were in the $45,000 to $50,000. range for a grid connected with battery backup system.  Even with a $2500. rebate, I can't do that.  

I completely understand where all of you are coming from.  And how all of you are coming up with the same solution.  Lets say there is a chance that the context changes.  Your solution is based on saving money on the utility bill.  What happens if a proxy war participant pops an EMP over each coast and knocks out the grid?  Or something simple and a much more likely economic collapse happens and the grid folks opt not to supply their stuff without compensation?  

So what is your recommended solution for the nutjob client that just wants an affordable just in case off grid battery backup system to provide some minimal amount of power over the long term in the context that the grid and utility bills are no longer in the equation?  

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-04-2023 11:44 AM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, is this a roof-mounted PV array, or ground mount? And where specifically will the inverter be installed, inside the home?

Also, are you in Austin Energy territory?  If so, they have a $2500 rebate for residential solar. But, the system must be grid connected, so that inverter cannot be used. You can buy a Schneider XW Pro for about $3,000, which is a much better inverter and is UL Listed and IEEE compliant for US grid. The EG4 website says that their ESS (batteries) may be compatible with the Schneider Xanbus protocol. You would need a charge controller as well to charge the batteries from the PV array, as the inverter can only charge batteriess from grid or generate AC from the batteries.  Also recommended is the Power Dist Panel (PDP) from Schneider, s couple of ckt breakers you will need, and also their MPPT DisconnectRS rapid shutdown controller/switch.  Yes you will spend more money up front, but you will get $2500 rebate, and you will get INCOME from the system when the sun is out.

The average US home uses 10,600 kWh of energy anually, which works oout to an average of about 1.2kW constantly all day all year. If you home is close to that average, you will at times use much more than that and at times use lesss htan that. When the sun is out and your home is only using 400W, then you will have kWh produced just wasted, assuming your batteries are full.  Why not get paid for it?

-Ken

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 07:41 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

program 09  --  Grd  --  solar energy feed to grid configuration --  feed to grid disable (default setting)  --  Solar energy back feed to grid disable.  THIS (ENABLE) SETTING IS NOT CERTIFIED FOR THE UNITED STATES.   

Seems like I would need to change a default setting to back feed.  I will make sure and check that setting when I am up and running.  I do not want to back feed to the grid.  I only want to have a minimal back up battery system with PV.   I like the fact that it has a built in charger and I want to use it with the feed back disabled.  I currently only have 3000 watts of PV.   Probably not enough to sell any back to the utility.  Built in charger may get used on regular basis. 

Utility does allow net metering and credits at about 9 cents per kwh.  Not too bad since my average charge is about 12 cents per kwh.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 05:59 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hi Again: This thread is getting obfuscatingly fuzzy.

First if I may, I want to shed all the financial "stuff" and focus on the engineering and what the utility will allow.

Questions:

1. Does your utility have net metering?
2. If not, do they prohibit back feeding of electricity, paid or unpaid?
3. If they prohibit any production to the grid, then and only then does you current "track" make engineering since. 
4. If they allow production to the grid, grid tie at a low level makes sense to reduce your grid load even without net-metering.              The trick is to size the grid-tie array to only produce as little production to them as possible, yet kill a majority of your load.
5. The reason I am asking this is I detected in your response about preventing back feed to be rather explicit, as if to not break rules...???....
6. I didn't look to see if your inverter has what I would call IEEE normal instantaneous disconnect. THAT IS A MUST from an engineering perspective. Having both your inverter active and the grid active at the same time, or yours active and connected to a down grid is a SHOW STOPPER!!. Now I am guessing that with the international cert for grid connect, it will not have a head on collision with any grid, but you need to specifically check that spec, and get your utilities approval, assuming they allow grid connect in the first place.

I would seriously try to keep the engineering decisions separate from money issues. It will not help the clarity of the end result if you don't.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:49 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 6:45:00 PM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, I know you have had trouble getting guidance on how to achieve your goals for affordable solar, but please understand, the way you are approaching this is not the best way and in fact may doo you to failure.  The steps for going solar are first to decide in you needs. Then start putting a design on paper, looking at available components, prices, and adjusting your design and refining it to fit your budget and your needs, and capturing requirements of the utility, the NEC, etc. Then ask for advice or do additionalt research to verify your design is solid.  Then after all those steps, is the proper time to start buying equipment.

That inverter you bought cannot be used in a hybrid or grid-tied system. Utilities will not let you connect an inverter that is not IEEE1547 compliant and UL 1741 Listed. So you will not be able to build a system with it that will help save you money on your electric bill. You can use it to  build a completely off-grid system, but it will be separate from the grid, i.e. you will be on grid with no solar until grid power is down, then you can switch over to your off-grid system via a transfer swith or some other mechanism. The result is you will spend a lot of money for one week of having power when the grid goes down. There are lots of other requirements like rapid shutdown, arc-fault detection, etc that you will need to consider as well when selecting components.

From what you have said previously what you really need is a hybrid system, that is grid-tied and saving you money all year by reducing your utility usage, and that can switch to grid-forming operation on loss of grid.  If I were you I would try and return that inverter.

This is another reason why solar installation companies do not want to work with DIYers, because they often want to buy components and then ask to fit them into a solution. It just does not work.

I highly recommend you pause, don't buy anything futher, look into what can be returned, and follow the steps I gave above to get a solid approach and detailed design before you proceed.

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 01:30 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 3:00:00 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hello again...happy 4th BTW.

The inverter you have CAN back feed to the grid at the 240VAC and 60HZ of USA electricity. They for one reason or another did not get it certified for the USA. They call it internationally certified. AN interesting distinction, implying it can handle USA elect but did not get it specifically USA certified by USA certifing entities. A bureaucratic limitation, not engineering. 

SO if you cleared it with your utility, you could back feed excess for net-metering.

Nice inverter BTW. Check bottom of page 25 last picture for back feed diagram user manual. Attached screen shot.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 11:14 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

EG4 6000EX 48HV off grid split all in one inverter and 3 - EG4 LL 48v batteries 

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 10:43 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Logical steps. If you don't mind too much, can you provide the exact inverter (Mfg., Model, etc.) that you have in your possession?

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:50 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Thank you for the link. 

We are on the grid and currently grid dependent.  I want to have an off the grid battery backup system for when the grid goes down.  The inverter I bought does have a built in charger to top off the batteries from the grid but there will be no energy going back to the grid.  We had a week of no electric and no water this past winter.  

So, the current projects either in progress or in the planning stage:

Off grid solar with battery backup.

Wood stove.

Rainwater harvesting.

Water reuse.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-02-2023 10:15 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

I am late to the party commenting on this. Just as a clarification, are you totally off grid doing the system or are you grid tie and wanting to make your "place" off grid capable?

A great site that's been around forever is:

https://www.builditsolar.com/

especially if you are doing it yourself.

Not knowing at this moment your answer to the above, if you are totally off grid, you tend to be viewed a step down. There are many reasons for this, some of them inherent in that functionality, some political and some Capitalistic.

I hope that site can help you from the technical side....

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2023 10:24 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

------------------------------
lester germanio
------------------------------

Hi Lester, I think I understand where you are coming from and I just want to clarify. When you say "just like you, they generally thought I didn't need the battery backup", that is not just like me.  A solar PV system should meet the specific needs of each customer. I never tell anyone they "don't need" a feature. However, I feel it is my responsibility to provide insight and context around options to consider, so the customer can make an educated decision that is right for them. When I look back on this thread, it does seem like there has been a disconnect between what you are doing as plan B, and what you initially talked about with the installers who quoted you.  Your plan B seems to be a smaller, 3kW to 6kW PV array, and 14.8kWh of storage, with a primary goal to be resilient and have power available that is not reliant on the grid.  So if those installation companies were proposing a 14kW array and 18kWh (just a guess here) of storage for whole house backup, and the cost was $45k to $50k, and you were asking for something different, you should have insisted they listen to you and modify their proposal accordingly.  If they would not oblige, then get a quote from another installer that will listen to your needs.  What I and others here have been trying to do is show you how those specific needs you have can be met by installing a PV system that utilizes a hybrid inverter that can provide that battery backup power but also benefit you financially when the grid is operating fine.  The problem is that you selected an incompatible inverter to do so, and you seem committed to it.  I am confident that if you were to get a fair quote from and installer for a 6kWdc array with a hybrid inverter and about 15kWh of storage, it would cost significantly less than $45k to $50k, and your net long term cost would actually be much less, since when in grid-tied mode it would generate income for you. Of course, it still may be more than you can afford up-front, and that is understandable, especially when considering your point that for many Americans they cannot take advantage of the ITC because of their income bracket.

OK. SO you already have the cheese on the side. Then you should be fine. You can parallel the two. But the connections for two separate using AC coupling is tricky because there will be no way to regulate the power from the grid tie to the batteries in a grid down scenario. When the power fails, you will have to turn off the grid tie to prevent battery overcharge. Now that said, there will be those that will tell you that you can use battery max voltage settings to hold the "overcharge" at bay. Practically speaking, is is not a good idea, especially with Lithium batteries and BLM's. That's where the combined inverter/charger/back feed has value. 

The way I have mine setup is the grid tie is AC coupled to the Xantrex, but they really do not "get along" in grid out operation. SO I have my barn array feed the batteries through a 6KW charge controller and I turn off the grid tie so the whole system remains stable when the grid is down.

But you need allot of electrical design knowledge to get that whole thing right, along with the practical skills of installation. Additionally, you had better ask your utility if they require certified installers or can you use outside certification (Inspectors) to pass their requirements. If the utility requires certified solar installers, you are screwed from any grid tie aspect.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-05-2023 09:09 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/5/2023 11:42:00 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

The point is the solution is exactly the same regarding either choice. Straight grid tie inverters VS hybrid inverters (Inverter/charger) are not that different in cost (Sense you said "Too much" above).

The batteries are the expensive part. If you had bought a Sol-Ark or Xantrex (Schneider Electric) hybrid inverter that would not have been a cert issue for the USA, you would have both the active back feed and battery backup as well, without utility complaint. It is not some Binary forced choice. It would be like ordering a burger, fries and a Coke but saying I don't want the fries, when basically you already paid for them. The Batteries are the fries but you should have gotten the burger with cheese.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-05-2023 08:19 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

The estimates i got were in the $45,000 to $50,000. range for a grid connected with battery backup system.  Even with a $2500. rebate, I can't do that.  

I completely understand where all of you are coming from.  And how all of you are coming up with the same solution.  Lets say there is a chance that the context changes.  Your solution is based on saving money on the utility bill.  What happens if a proxy war participant pops an EMP over each coast and knocks out the grid?  Or something simple and a much more likely economic collapse happens and the grid folks opt not to supply their stuff without compensation?  

So what is your recommended solution for the nutjob client that just wants an affordable just in case off grid battery backup system to provide some minimal amount of power over the long term in the context that the grid and utility bills are no longer in the equation?  

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-04-2023 11:44 AM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, is this a roof-mounted PV array, or ground mount? And where specifically will the inverter be installed, inside the home?

Also, are you in Austin Energy territory?  If so, they have a $2500 rebate for residential solar. But, the system must be grid connected, so that inverter cannot be used. You can buy a Schneider XW Pro for about $3,000, which is a much better inverter and is UL Listed and IEEE compliant for US grid. The EG4 website says that their ESS (batteries) may be compatible with the Schneider Xanbus protocol. You would need a charge controller as well to charge the batteries from the PV array, as the inverter can only charge batteriess from grid or generate AC from the batteries.  Also recommended is the Power Dist Panel (PDP) from Schneider, s couple of ckt breakers you will need, and also their MPPT DisconnectRS rapid shutdown controller/switch.  Yes you will spend more money up front, but you will get $2500 rebate, and you will get INCOME from the system when the sun is out.

The average US home uses 10,600 kWh of energy anually, which works oout to an average of about 1.2kW constantly all day all year. If you home is close to that average, you will at times use much more than that and at times use lesss htan that. When the sun is out and your home is only using 400W, then you will have kWh produced just wasted, assuming your batteries are full.  Why not get paid for it?

-Ken

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 07:41 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

program 09  --  Grd  --  solar energy feed to grid configuration --  feed to grid disable (default setting)  --  Solar energy back feed to grid disable.  THIS (ENABLE) SETTING IS NOT CERTIFIED FOR THE UNITED STATES.   

Seems like I would need to change a default setting to back feed.  I will make sure and check that setting when I am up and running.  I do not want to back feed to the grid.  I only want to have a minimal back up battery system with PV.   I like the fact that it has a built in charger and I want to use it with the feed back disabled.  I currently only have 3000 watts of PV.   Probably not enough to sell any back to the utility.  Built in charger may get used on regular basis. 

Utility does allow net metering and credits at about 9 cents per kwh.  Not too bad since my average charge is about 12 cents per kwh.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 05:59 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hi Again: This thread is getting obfuscatingly fuzzy.

First if I may, I want to shed all the financial "stuff" and focus on the engineering and what the utility will allow.

Questions:

1. Does your utility have net metering?
2. If not, do they prohibit back feeding of electricity, paid or unpaid?
3. If they prohibit any production to the grid, then and only then does you current "track" make engineering since. 
4. If they allow production to the grid, grid tie at a low level makes sense to reduce your grid load even without net-metering.              The trick is to size the grid-tie array to only produce as little production to them as possible, yet kill a majority of your load.
5. The reason I am asking this is I detected in your response about preventing back feed to be rather explicit, as if to not break rules...???....
6. I didn't look to see if your inverter has what I would call IEEE normal instantaneous disconnect. THAT IS A MUST from an engineering perspective. Having both your inverter active and the grid active at the same time, or yours active and connected to a down grid is a SHOW STOPPER!!. Now I am guessing that with the international cert for grid connect, it will not have a head on collision with any grid, but you need to specifically check that spec, and get your utilities approval, assuming they allow grid connect in the first place.

I would seriously try to keep the engineering decisions separate from money issues. It will not help the clarity of the end result if you don't.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:49 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 6:45:00 PM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, I know you have had trouble getting guidance on how to achieve your goals for affordable solar, but please understand, the way you are approaching this is not the best way and in fact may doo you to failure.  The steps for going solar are first to decide in you needs. Then start putting a design on paper, looking at available components, prices, and adjusting your design and refining it to fit your budget and your needs, and capturing requirements of the utility, the NEC, etc. Then ask for advice or do additionalt research to verify your design is solid.  Then after all those steps, is the proper time to start buying equipment.

That inverter you bought cannot be used in a hybrid or grid-tied system. Utilities will not let you connect an inverter that is not IEEE1547 compliant and UL 1741 Listed. So you will not be able to build a system with it that will help save you money on your electric bill. You can use it to  build a completely off-grid system, but it will be separate from the grid, i.e. you will be on grid with no solar until grid power is down, then you can switch over to your off-grid system via a transfer swith or some other mechanism. The result is you will spend a lot of money for one week of having power when the grid goes down. There are lots of other requirements like rapid shutdown, arc-fault detection, etc that you will need to consider as well when selecting components.

From what you have said previously what you really need is a hybrid system, that is grid-tied and saving you money all year by reducing your utility usage, and that can switch to grid-forming operation on loss of grid.  If I were you I would try and return that inverter.

This is another reason why solar installation companies do not want to work with DIYers, because they often want to buy components and then ask to fit them into a solution. It just does not work.

I highly recommend you pause, don't buy anything futher, look into what can be returned, and follow the steps I gave above to get a solid approach and detailed design before you proceed.

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 01:30 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 3:00:00 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hello again...happy 4th BTW.

The inverter you have CAN back feed to the grid at the 240VAC and 60HZ of USA electricity. They for one reason or another did not get it certified for the USA. They call it internationally certified. AN interesting distinction, implying it can handle USA elect but did not get it specifically USA certified by USA certifing entities. A bureaucratic limitation, not engineering. 

SO if you cleared it with your utility, you could back feed excess for net-metering.

Nice inverter BTW. Check bottom of page 25 last picture for back feed diagram user manual. Attached screen shot.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 11:14 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

EG4 6000EX 48HV off grid split all in one inverter and 3 - EG4 LL 48v batteries 

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 10:43 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Logical steps. If you don't mind too much, can you provide the exact inverter (Mfg., Model, etc.) that you have in your possession?

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:50 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Thank you for the link. 

We are on the grid and currently grid dependent.  I want to have an off the grid battery backup system for when the grid goes down.  The inverter I bought does have a built in charger to top off the batteries from the grid but there will be no energy going back to the grid.  We had a week of no electric and no water this past winter.  

So, the current projects either in progress or in the planning stage:

Off grid solar with battery backup.

Wood stove.

Rainwater harvesting.

Water reuse.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-02-2023 10:15 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

I am late to the party commenting on this. Just as a clarification, are you totally off grid doing the system or are you grid tie and wanting to make your "place" off grid capable?

A great site that's been around forever is:

https://www.builditsolar.com/

especially if you are doing it yourself.

Not knowing at this moment your answer to the above, if you are totally off grid, you tend to be viewed a step down. There are many reasons for this, some of them inherent in that functionality, some political and some Capitalistic.

I hope that site can help you from the technical side....

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2023 10:24 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

------------------------------
lester germanio
------------------------------

I think my problem mostly was that I was not in the target market.  Numbers really do not work without the tax credit, even with a close to median income.  Even less chance with a costly battery backup.  The system to maximize the sales price requires the system to be designed around canceling out the utility bill and using a maximum tax credit.  My cost per month without the batteries and without the tax credit was already too high.  Batteries are the first thing that have to be axed.  Since the back-up is what I wanted the most, I got to feeling the only way for me to do the project was to piece it together myself.  So here I am. 

I have given up on finding a solar installer to consult with or to wire my system.  I have an electrician who says he has some PV experience coming over this next week to see if he wants to get involved.  

I am happy I am not in your business.  With the interest rates going up, your small market has got to be shrinking fast.

Hi Lester, I think I understand where you are coming from and I just want to clarify. When you say "just like you, they generally thought I didn't need the battery backup", that is not just like me.  A solar PV system should meet the specific needs of each customer. I never tell anyone they "don't need" a feature. However, I feel it is my responsibility to provide insight and context around options to consider, so the customer can make an educated decision that is right for them. When I look back on this thread, it does seem like there has been a disconnect between what you are doing as plan B, and what you initially talked about with the installers who quoted you.  Your plan B seems to be a smaller, 3kW to 6kW PV array, and 14.8kWh of storage, with a primary goal to be resilient and have power available that is not reliant on the grid.  So if those installation companies were proposing a 14kW array and 18kWh (just a guess here) of storage for whole house backup, and the cost was $45k to $50k, and you were asking for something different, you should have insisted they listen to you and modify their proposal accordingly.  If they would not oblige, then get a quote from another installer that will listen to your needs.  What I and others here have been trying to do is show you how those specific needs you have can be met by installing a PV system that utilizes a hybrid inverter that can provide that battery backup power but also benefit you financially when the grid is operating fine.  The problem is that you selected an incompatible inverter to do so, and you seem committed to it.  I am confident that if you were to get a fair quote from and installer for a 6kWdc array with a hybrid inverter and about 15kWh of storage, it would cost significantly less than $45k to $50k, and your net long term cost would actually be much less, since when in grid-tied mode it would generate income for you. Of course, it still may be more than you can afford up-front, and that is understandable, especially when considering your point that for many Americans they cannot take advantage of the ITC because of their income bracket.

OK. SO you already have the cheese on the side. Then you should be fine. You can parallel the two. But the connections for two separate using AC coupling is tricky because there will be no way to regulate the power from the grid tie to the batteries in a grid down scenario. When the power fails, you will have to turn off the grid tie to prevent battery overcharge. Now that said, there will be those that will tell you that you can use battery max voltage settings to hold the "overcharge" at bay. Practically speaking, is is not a good idea, especially with Lithium batteries and BLM's. That's where the combined inverter/charger/back feed has value. 

The way I have mine setup is the grid tie is AC coupled to the Xantrex, but they really do not "get along" in grid out operation. SO I have my barn array feed the batteries through a 6KW charge controller and I turn off the grid tie so the whole system remains stable when the grid is down.

But you need allot of electrical design knowledge to get that whole thing right, along with the practical skills of installation. Additionally, you had better ask your utility if they require certified installers or can you use outside certification (Inspectors) to pass their requirements. If the utility requires certified solar installers, you are screwed from any grid tie aspect.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-05-2023 09:09 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/5/2023 11:42:00 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

The point is the solution is exactly the same regarding either choice. Straight grid tie inverters VS hybrid inverters (Inverter/charger) are not that different in cost (Sense you said "Too much" above).

The batteries are the expensive part. If you had bought a Sol-Ark or Xantrex (Schneider Electric) hybrid inverter that would not have been a cert issue for the USA, you would have both the active back feed and battery backup as well, without utility complaint. It is not some Binary forced choice. It would be like ordering a burger, fries and a Coke but saying I don't want the fries, when basically you already paid for them. The Batteries are the fries but you should have gotten the burger with cheese.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-05-2023 08:19 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

The estimates i got were in the $45,000 to $50,000. range for a grid connected with battery backup system.  Even with a $2500. rebate, I can't do that.  

I completely understand where all of you are coming from.  And how all of you are coming up with the same solution.  Lets say there is a chance that the context changes.  Your solution is based on saving money on the utility bill.  What happens if a proxy war participant pops an EMP over each coast and knocks out the grid?  Or something simple and a much more likely economic collapse happens and the grid folks opt not to supply their stuff without compensation?  

So what is your recommended solution for the nutjob client that just wants an affordable just in case off grid battery backup system to provide some minimal amount of power over the long term in the context that the grid and utility bills are no longer in the equation?  

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-04-2023 11:44 AM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, is this a roof-mounted PV array, or ground mount? And where specifically will the inverter be installed, inside the home?

Also, are you in Austin Energy territory?  If so, they have a $2500 rebate for residential solar. But, the system must be grid connected, so that inverter cannot be used. You can buy a Schneider XW Pro for about $3,000, which is a much better inverter and is UL Listed and IEEE compliant for US grid. The EG4 website says that their ESS (batteries) may be compatible with the Schneider Xanbus protocol. You would need a charge controller as well to charge the batteries from the PV array, as the inverter can only charge batteriess from grid or generate AC from the batteries.  Also recommended is the Power Dist Panel (PDP) from Schneider, s couple of ckt breakers you will need, and also their MPPT DisconnectRS rapid shutdown controller/switch.  Yes you will spend more money up front, but you will get $2500 rebate, and you will get INCOME from the system when the sun is out.

The average US home uses 10,600 kWh of energy anually, which works oout to an average of about 1.2kW constantly all day all year. If you home is close to that average, you will at times use much more than that and at times use lesss htan that. When the sun is out and your home is only using 400W, then you will have kWh produced just wasted, assuming your batteries are full.  Why not get paid for it?

-Ken

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 07:41 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

program 09  --  Grd  --  solar energy feed to grid configuration --  feed to grid disable (default setting)  --  Solar energy back feed to grid disable.  THIS (ENABLE) SETTING IS NOT CERTIFIED FOR THE UNITED STATES.   

Seems like I would need to change a default setting to back feed.  I will make sure and check that setting when I am up and running.  I do not want to back feed to the grid.  I only want to have a minimal back up battery system with PV.   I like the fact that it has a built in charger and I want to use it with the feed back disabled.  I currently only have 3000 watts of PV.   Probably not enough to sell any back to the utility.  Built in charger may get used on regular basis. 

Utility does allow net metering and credits at about 9 cents per kwh.  Not too bad since my average charge is about 12 cents per kwh.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 05:59 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hi Again: This thread is getting obfuscatingly fuzzy.

First if I may, I want to shed all the financial "stuff" and focus on the engineering and what the utility will allow.

Questions:

1. Does your utility have net metering?
2. If not, do they prohibit back feeding of electricity, paid or unpaid?
3. If they prohibit any production to the grid, then and only then does you current "track" make engineering since. 
4. If they allow production to the grid, grid tie at a low level makes sense to reduce your grid load even without net-metering.              The trick is to size the grid-tie array to only produce as little production to them as possible, yet kill a majority of your load.
5. The reason I am asking this is I detected in your response about preventing back feed to be rather explicit, as if to not break rules...???....
6. I didn't look to see if your inverter has what I would call IEEE normal instantaneous disconnect. THAT IS A MUST from an engineering perspective. Having both your inverter active and the grid active at the same time, or yours active and connected to a down grid is a SHOW STOPPER!!. Now I am guessing that with the international cert for grid connect, it will not have a head on collision with any grid, but you need to specifically check that spec, and get your utilities approval, assuming they allow grid connect in the first place.

I would seriously try to keep the engineering decisions separate from money issues. It will not help the clarity of the end result if you don't.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:49 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 6:45:00 PM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, I know you have had trouble getting guidance on how to achieve your goals for affordable solar, but please understand, the way you are approaching this is not the best way and in fact may doo you to failure.  The steps for going solar are first to decide in you needs. Then start putting a design on paper, looking at available components, prices, and adjusting your design and refining it to fit your budget and your needs, and capturing requirements of the utility, the NEC, etc. Then ask for advice or do additionalt research to verify your design is solid.  Then after all those steps, is the proper time to start buying equipment.

That inverter you bought cannot be used in a hybrid or grid-tied system. Utilities will not let you connect an inverter that is not IEEE1547 compliant and UL 1741 Listed. So you will not be able to build a system with it that will help save you money on your electric bill. You can use it to  build a completely off-grid system, but it will be separate from the grid, i.e. you will be on grid with no solar until grid power is down, then you can switch over to your off-grid system via a transfer swith or some other mechanism. The result is you will spend a lot of money for one week of having power when the grid goes down. There are lots of other requirements like rapid shutdown, arc-fault detection, etc that you will need to consider as well when selecting components.

From what you have said previously what you really need is a hybrid system, that is grid-tied and saving you money all year by reducing your utility usage, and that can switch to grid-forming operation on loss of grid.  If I were you I would try and return that inverter.

This is another reason why solar installation companies do not want to work with DIYers, because they often want to buy components and then ask to fit them into a solution. It just does not work.

I highly recommend you pause, don't buy anything futher, look into what can be returned, and follow the steps I gave above to get a solid approach and detailed design before you proceed.

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 01:30 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 3:00:00 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hello again...happy 4th BTW.

The inverter you have CAN back feed to the grid at the 240VAC and 60HZ of USA electricity. They for one reason or another did not get it certified for the USA. They call it internationally certified. AN interesting distinction, implying it can handle USA elect but did not get it specifically USA certified by USA certifing entities. A bureaucratic limitation, not engineering. 

SO if you cleared it with your utility, you could back feed excess for net-metering.

Nice inverter BTW. Check bottom of page 25 last picture for back feed diagram user manual. Attached screen shot.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 11:14 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

EG4 6000EX 48HV off grid split all in one inverter and 3 - EG4 LL 48v batteries 

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 10:43 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Logical steps. If you don't mind too much, can you provide the exact inverter (Mfg., Model, etc.) that you have in your possession?

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:50 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Thank you for the link. 

We are on the grid and currently grid dependent.  I want to have an off the grid battery backup system for when the grid goes down.  The inverter I bought does have a built in charger to top off the batteries from the grid but there will be no energy going back to the grid.  We had a week of no electric and no water this past winter.  

So, the current projects either in progress or in the planning stage:

Off grid solar with battery backup.

Wood stove.

Rainwater harvesting.

Water reuse.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-02-2023 10:15 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

I am late to the party commenting on this. Just as a clarification, are you totally off grid doing the system or are you grid tie and wanting to make your "place" off grid capable?

A great site that's been around forever is:

https://www.builditsolar.com/

especially if you are doing it yourself.

Not knowing at this moment your answer to the above, if you are totally off grid, you tend to be viewed a step down. There are many reasons for this, some of them inherent in that functionality, some political and some Capitalistic.

I hope that site can help you from the technical side....

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2023 10:24 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

------------------------------
lester germanio
------------------------------

Hi Lester: I wish you had not posted what you just did. I can not let that go. 

Your very first post starting this thread, sounded like you wanted to pick a fight with Alan Greenspan rather than solve a solar engineering problem.

But to be current to this last post, the solar market is not shrinking. In fact it is almost entering into the range of exploding.  Most of your financial complaints are about the workings of Capitalism, not the solar industry. If you want to pick a fight with Capitalism, be my guest, but I would start with CW (Concentrated Wealth), not an industry that is trying to ACTUALLY do the right thing for all of HUMANITY.

Almost every single one of your complaints can be found mirrored in the housing construction and real estate industry. The loan apparatus, the way they want to build the house, pre-defined designs and a resistance to flexibility. If you want something "different", be prepared to pay through the nose $$$$. No interest in people who want to paint outside the lines. Etc..

People in the Solar industry are just trying to deliver clean free energy to the planet (SO we ALL get to live) while being constantly attacked and clubbed like baby seals, by the FFI GOD level wealth machine and their bought politicians, utility monopolies only interested in RE if they get to own it, and therefore charge for the energy, on and on and on... It has been like this sense the early 70's, and I know this because I was IN IT back than with solar thermal and super insulated housing, Earth tube cooling, etc., etc..

I can easily appreciate your level of frustration, but I think there is a certain level of re-direction on your part that needs to occur.

When I see a post like that, to me it means you want to sit at the big boy table and drink 151. I hope you like 4oz Rum shots, no ice.

I think my problem mostly was that I was not in the target market.  Numbers really do not work without the tax credit, even with a close to median income.  Even less chance with a costly battery backup.  The system to maximize the sales price requires the system to be designed around canceling out the utility bill and using a maximum tax credit.  My cost per month without the batteries and without the tax credit was already too high.  Batteries are the first thing that have to be axed.  Since the back-up is what I wanted the most, I got to feeling the only way for me to do the project was to piece it together myself.  So here I am. 

I have given up on finding a solar installer to consult with or to wire my system.  I have an electrician who says he has some PV experience coming over this next week to see if he wants to get involved.  

I am happy I am not in your business.  With the interest rates going up, your small market has got to be shrinking fast.

Hi Lester, I think I understand where you are coming from and I just want to clarify. When you say "just like you, they generally thought I didn't need the battery backup", that is not just like me.  A solar PV system should meet the specific needs of each customer. I never tell anyone they "don't need" a feature. However, I feel it is my responsibility to provide insight and context around options to consider, so the customer can make an educated decision that is right for them. When I look back on this thread, it does seem like there has been a disconnect between what you are doing as plan B, and what you initially talked about with the installers who quoted you.  Your plan B seems to be a smaller, 3kW to 6kW PV array, and 14.8kWh of storage, with a primary goal to be resilient and have power available that is not reliant on the grid.  So if those installation companies were proposing a 14kW array and 18kWh (just a guess here) of storage for whole house backup, and the cost was $45k to $50k, and you were asking for something different, you should have insisted they listen to you and modify their proposal accordingly.  If they would not oblige, then get a quote from another installer that will listen to your needs.  What I and others here have been trying to do is show you how those specific needs you have can be met by installing a PV system that utilizes a hybrid inverter that can provide that battery backup power but also benefit you financially when the grid is operating fine.  The problem is that you selected an incompatible inverter to do so, and you seem committed to it.  I am confident that if you were to get a fair quote from and installer for a 6kWdc array with a hybrid inverter and about 15kWh of storage, it would cost significantly less than $45k to $50k, and your net long term cost would actually be much less, since when in grid-tied mode it would generate income for you. Of course, it still may be more than you can afford up-front, and that is understandable, especially when considering your point that for many Americans they cannot take advantage of the ITC because of their income bracket.

OK. SO you already have the cheese on the side. Then you should be fine. You can parallel the two. But the connections for two separate using AC coupling is tricky because there will be no way to regulate the power from the grid tie to the batteries in a grid down scenario. When the power fails, you will have to turn off the grid tie to prevent battery overcharge. Now that said, there will be those that will tell you that you can use battery max voltage settings to hold the "overcharge" at bay. Practically speaking, is is not a good idea, especially with Lithium batteries and BLM's. That's where the combined inverter/charger/back feed has value. 

The way I have mine setup is the grid tie is AC coupled to the Xantrex, but they really do not "get along" in grid out operation. SO I have my barn array feed the batteries through a 6KW charge controller and I turn off the grid tie so the whole system remains stable when the grid is down.

But you need allot of electrical design knowledge to get that whole thing right, along with the practical skills of installation. Additionally, you had better ask your utility if they require certified installers or can you use outside certification (Inspectors) to pass their requirements. If the utility requires certified solar installers, you are screwed from any grid tie aspect.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-05-2023 09:09 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/5/2023 11:42:00 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

The point is the solution is exactly the same regarding either choice. Straight grid tie inverters VS hybrid inverters (Inverter/charger) are not that different in cost (Sense you said "Too much" above).

The batteries are the expensive part. If you had bought a Sol-Ark or Xantrex (Schneider Electric) hybrid inverter that would not have been a cert issue for the USA, you would have both the active back feed and battery backup as well, without utility complaint. It is not some Binary forced choice. It would be like ordering a burger, fries and a Coke but saying I don't want the fries, when basically you already paid for them. The Batteries are the fries but you should have gotten the burger with cheese.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-05-2023 08:19 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

The estimates i got were in the $45,000 to $50,000. range for a grid connected with battery backup system.  Even with a $2500. rebate, I can't do that.  

I completely understand where all of you are coming from.  And how all of you are coming up with the same solution.  Lets say there is a chance that the context changes.  Your solution is based on saving money on the utility bill.  What happens if a proxy war participant pops an EMP over each coast and knocks out the grid?  Or something simple and a much more likely economic collapse happens and the grid folks opt not to supply their stuff without compensation?  

So what is your recommended solution for the nutjob client that just wants an affordable just in case off grid battery backup system to provide some minimal amount of power over the long term in the context that the grid and utility bills are no longer in the equation?  

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-04-2023 11:44 AM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, is this a roof-mounted PV array, or ground mount? And where specifically will the inverter be installed, inside the home?

Also, are you in Austin Energy territory?  If so, they have a $2500 rebate for residential solar. But, the system must be grid connected, so that inverter cannot be used. You can buy a Schneider XW Pro for about $3,000, which is a much better inverter and is UL Listed and IEEE compliant for US grid. The EG4 website says that their ESS (batteries) may be compatible with the Schneider Xanbus protocol. You would need a charge controller as well to charge the batteries from the PV array, as the inverter can only charge batteriess from grid or generate AC from the batteries.  Also recommended is the Power Dist Panel (PDP) from Schneider, s couple of ckt breakers you will need, and also their MPPT DisconnectRS rapid shutdown controller/switch.  Yes you will spend more money up front, but you will get $2500 rebate, and you will get INCOME from the system when the sun is out.

The average US home uses 10,600 kWh of energy anually, which works oout to an average of about 1.2kW constantly all day all year. If you home is close to that average, you will at times use much more than that and at times use lesss htan that. When the sun is out and your home is only using 400W, then you will have kWh produced just wasted, assuming your batteries are full.  Why not get paid for it?

-Ken

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 07:41 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

program 09  --  Grd  --  solar energy feed to grid configuration --  feed to grid disable (default setting)  --  Solar energy back feed to grid disable.  THIS (ENABLE) SETTING IS NOT CERTIFIED FOR THE UNITED STATES.   

Seems like I would need to change a default setting to back feed.  I will make sure and check that setting when I am up and running.  I do not want to back feed to the grid.  I only want to have a minimal back up battery system with PV.   I like the fact that it has a built in charger and I want to use it with the feed back disabled.  I currently only have 3000 watts of PV.   Probably not enough to sell any back to the utility.  Built in charger may get used on regular basis. 

Utility does allow net metering and credits at about 9 cents per kwh.  Not too bad since my average charge is about 12 cents per kwh.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 05:59 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hi Again: This thread is getting obfuscatingly fuzzy.

First if I may, I want to shed all the financial "stuff" and focus on the engineering and what the utility will allow.

Questions:

1. Does your utility have net metering?
2. If not, do they prohibit back feeding of electricity, paid or unpaid?
3. If they prohibit any production to the grid, then and only then does you current "track" make engineering since. 
4. If they allow production to the grid, grid tie at a low level makes sense to reduce your grid load even without net-metering.              The trick is to size the grid-tie array to only produce as little production to them as possible, yet kill a majority of your load.
5. The reason I am asking this is I detected in your response about preventing back feed to be rather explicit, as if to not break rules...???....
6. I didn't look to see if your inverter has what I would call IEEE normal instantaneous disconnect. THAT IS A MUST from an engineering perspective. Having both your inverter active and the grid active at the same time, or yours active and connected to a down grid is a SHOW STOPPER!!. Now I am guessing that with the international cert for grid connect, it will not have a head on collision with any grid, but you need to specifically check that spec, and get your utilities approval, assuming they allow grid connect in the first place.

I would seriously try to keep the engineering decisions separate from money issues. It will not help the clarity of the end result if you don't.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:49 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 6:45:00 PM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, I know you have had trouble getting guidance on how to achieve your goals for affordable solar, but please understand, the way you are approaching this is not the best way and in fact may doo you to failure.  The steps for going solar are first to decide in you needs. Then start putting a design on paper, looking at available components, prices, and adjusting your design and refining it to fit your budget and your needs, and capturing requirements of the utility, the NEC, etc. Then ask for advice or do additionalt research to verify your design is solid.  Then after all those steps, is the proper time to start buying equipment.

That inverter you bought cannot be used in a hybrid or grid-tied system. Utilities will not let you connect an inverter that is not IEEE1547 compliant and UL 1741 Listed. So you will not be able to build a system with it that will help save you money on your electric bill. You can use it to  build a completely off-grid system, but it will be separate from the grid, i.e. you will be on grid with no solar until grid power is down, then you can switch over to your off-grid system via a transfer swith or some other mechanism. The result is you will spend a lot of money for one week of having power when the grid goes down. There are lots of other requirements like rapid shutdown, arc-fault detection, etc that you will need to consider as well when selecting components.

From what you have said previously what you really need is a hybrid system, that is grid-tied and saving you money all year by reducing your utility usage, and that can switch to grid-forming operation on loss of grid.  If I were you I would try and return that inverter.

This is another reason why solar installation companies do not want to work with DIYers, because they often want to buy components and then ask to fit them into a solution. It just does not work.

I highly recommend you pause, don't buy anything futher, look into what can be returned, and follow the steps I gave above to get a solid approach and detailed design before you proceed.

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 01:30 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 3:00:00 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hello again...happy 4th BTW.

The inverter you have CAN back feed to the grid at the 240VAC and 60HZ of USA electricity. They for one reason or another did not get it certified for the USA. They call it internationally certified. AN interesting distinction, implying it can handle USA elect but did not get it specifically USA certified by USA certifing entities. A bureaucratic limitation, not engineering. 

SO if you cleared it with your utility, you could back feed excess for net-metering.

Nice inverter BTW. Check bottom of page 25 last picture for back feed diagram user manual. Attached screen shot.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 11:14 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

EG4 6000EX 48HV off grid split all in one inverter and 3 - EG4 LL 48v batteries 

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 10:43 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Logical steps. If you don't mind too much, can you provide the exact inverter (Mfg., Model, etc.) that you have in your possession?

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:50 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Thank you for the link. 

We are on the grid and currently grid dependent.  I want to have an off the grid battery backup system for when the grid goes down.  The inverter I bought does have a built in charger to top off the batteries from the grid but there will be no energy going back to the grid.  We had a week of no electric and no water this past winter.  

So, the current projects either in progress or in the planning stage:

Off grid solar with battery backup.

Wood stove.

Rainwater harvesting.

Water reuse.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-02-2023 10:15 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

I am late to the party commenting on this. Just as a clarification, are you totally off grid doing the system or are you grid tie and wanting to make your "place" off grid capable?

A great site that's been around forever is:

https://www.builditsolar.com/

especially if you are doing it yourself.

Not knowing at this moment your answer to the above, if you are totally off grid, you tend to be viewed a step down. There are many reasons for this, some of them inherent in that functionality, some political and some Capitalistic.

I hope that site can help you from the technical side....

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2023 10:24 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

------------------------------
lester germanio
------------------------------

Hi Lester: I wish you had not posted what you just did. I can not let that go. 

Your very first post starting this thread, sounded like you wanted to pick a fight with Alan Greenspan rather than solve a solar engineering problem.

But to be current to this last post, the solar market is not shrinking. In fact it is almost entering into the range of exploding.  Most of your financial complaints are about the workings of Capitalism, not the solar industry. If you want to pick a fight with Capitalism, be my guest, but I would start with CW (Concentrated Wealth), not an industry that is trying to ACTUALLY do the right thing for all of HUMANITY.

Almost every single one of your complaints can be found mirrored in the housing construction and real estate industry. The loan apparatus, the way they want to build the house, pre-defined designs and a resistance to flexibility. If you want something "different", be prepared to pay through the nose $$$$. No interest in people who want to paint outside the lines. Etc..

People in the Solar industry are just trying to deliver clean free energy to the planet (SO we ALL get to live) while being constantly attacked and clubbed like baby seals, by the FFI GOD level wealth machine and their bought politicians, utility monopolies only interested in RE if they get to own it, and therefore charge for the energy, on and on and on... It has been like this sense the early 70's, and I know this because I was IN IT back than with solar thermal and super insulated housing, Earth tube cooling, etc., etc..

I can easily appreciate your level of frustration, but I think there is a certain level of re-direction on your part that needs to occur.

When I see a post like that, to me it means you want to sit at the big boy table and drink 151. I hope you like 4oz Rum shots, no ice.

I think my problem mostly was that I was not in the target market.  Numbers really do not work without the tax credit, even with a close to median income.  Even less chance with a costly battery backup.  The system to maximize the sales price requires the system to be designed around canceling out the utility bill and using a maximum tax credit.  My cost per month without the batteries and without the tax credit was already too high.  Batteries are the first thing that have to be axed.  Since the back-up is what I wanted the most, I got to feeling the only way for me to do the project was to piece it together myself.  So here I am. 

I have given up on finding a solar installer to consult with or to wire my system.  I have an electrician who says he has some PV experience coming over this next week to see if he wants to get involved.  

I am happy I am not in your business.  With the interest rates going up, your small market has got to be shrinking fast.

Hi Lester, I think I understand where you are coming from and I just want to clarify. When you say "just like you, they generally thought I didn't need the battery backup", that is not just like me.  A solar PV system should meet the specific needs of each customer. I never tell anyone they "don't need" a feature. However, I feel it is my responsibility to provide insight and context around options to consider, so the customer can make an educated decision that is right for them. When I look back on this thread, it does seem like there has been a disconnect between what you are doing as plan B, and what you initially talked about with the installers who quoted you.  Your plan B seems to be a smaller, 3kW to 6kW PV array, and 14.8kWh of storage, with a primary goal to be resilient and have power available that is not reliant on the grid.  So if those installation companies were proposing a 14kW array and 18kWh (just a guess here) of storage for whole house backup, and the cost was $45k to $50k, and you were asking for something different, you should have insisted they listen to you and modify their proposal accordingly.  If they would not oblige, then get a quote from another installer that will listen to your needs.  What I and others here have been trying to do is show you how those specific needs you have can be met by installing a PV system that utilizes a hybrid inverter that can provide that battery backup power but also benefit you financially when the grid is operating fine.  The problem is that you selected an incompatible inverter to do so, and you seem committed to it.  I am confident that if you were to get a fair quote from and installer for a 6kWdc array with a hybrid inverter and about 15kWh of storage, it would cost significantly less than $45k to $50k, and your net long term cost would actually be much less, since when in grid-tied mode it would generate income for you. Of course, it still may be more than you can afford up-front, and that is understandable, especially when considering your point that for many Americans they cannot take advantage of the ITC because of their income bracket.

OK. SO you already have the cheese on the side. Then you should be fine. You can parallel the two. But the connections for two separate using AC coupling is tricky because there will be no way to regulate the power from the grid tie to the batteries in a grid down scenario. When the power fails, you will have to turn off the grid tie to prevent battery overcharge. Now that said, there will be those that will tell you that you can use battery max voltage settings to hold the "overcharge" at bay. Practically speaking, is is not a good idea, especially with Lithium batteries and BLM's. That's where the combined inverter/charger/back feed has value. 

The way I have mine setup is the grid tie is AC coupled to the Xantrex, but they really do not "get along" in grid out operation. SO I have my barn array feed the batteries through a 6KW charge controller and I turn off the grid tie so the whole system remains stable when the grid is down.

But you need allot of electrical design knowledge to get that whole thing right, along with the practical skills of installation. Additionally, you had better ask your utility if they require certified installers or can you use outside certification (Inspectors) to pass their requirements. If the utility requires certified solar installers, you are screwed from any grid tie aspect.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-05-2023 09:09 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/5/2023 11:42:00 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

The point is the solution is exactly the same regarding either choice. Straight grid tie inverters VS hybrid inverters (Inverter/charger) are not that different in cost (Sense you said "Too much" above).

The batteries are the expensive part. If you had bought a Sol-Ark or Xantrex (Schneider Electric) hybrid inverter that would not have been a cert issue for the USA, you would have both the active back feed and battery backup as well, without utility complaint. It is not some Binary forced choice. It would be like ordering a burger, fries and a Coke but saying I don't want the fries, when basically you already paid for them. The Batteries are the fries but you should have gotten the burger with cheese.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-05-2023 08:19 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

The estimates i got were in the $45,000 to $50,000. range for a grid connected with battery backup system.  Even with a $2500. rebate, I can't do that.  

I completely understand where all of you are coming from.  And how all of you are coming up with the same solution.  Lets say there is a chance that the context changes.  Your solution is based on saving money on the utility bill.  What happens if a proxy war participant pops an EMP over each coast and knocks out the grid?  Or something simple and a much more likely economic collapse happens and the grid folks opt not to supply their stuff without compensation?  

So what is your recommended solution for the nutjob client that just wants an affordable just in case off grid battery backup system to provide some minimal amount of power over the long term in the context that the grid and utility bills are no longer in the equation?  

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-04-2023 11:44 AM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, is this a roof-mounted PV array, or ground mount? And where specifically will the inverter be installed, inside the home?

Also, are you in Austin Energy territory?  If so, they have a $2500 rebate for residential solar. But, the system must be grid connected, so that inverter cannot be used. You can buy a Schneider XW Pro for about $3,000, which is a much better inverter and is UL Listed and IEEE compliant for US grid. The EG4 website says that their ESS (batteries) may be compatible with the Schneider Xanbus protocol. You would need a charge controller as well to charge the batteries from the PV array, as the inverter can only charge batteriess from grid or generate AC from the batteries.  Also recommended is the Power Dist Panel (PDP) from Schneider, s couple of ckt breakers you will need, and also their MPPT DisconnectRS rapid shutdown controller/switch.  Yes you will spend more money up front, but you will get $2500 rebate, and you will get INCOME from the system when the sun is out.

The average US home uses 10,600 kWh of energy anually, which works oout to an average of about 1.2kW constantly all day all year. If you home is close to that average, you will at times use much more than that and at times use lesss htan that. When the sun is out and your home is only using 400W, then you will have kWh produced just wasted, assuming your batteries are full.  Why not get paid for it?

-Ken

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 07:41 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

program 09  --  Grd  --  solar energy feed to grid configuration --  feed to grid disable (default setting)  --  Solar energy back feed to grid disable.  THIS (ENABLE) SETTING IS NOT CERTIFIED FOR THE UNITED STATES.   

Seems like I would need to change a default setting to back feed.  I will make sure and check that setting when I am up and running.  I do not want to back feed to the grid.  I only want to have a minimal back up battery system with PV.   I like the fact that it has a built in charger and I want to use it with the feed back disabled.  I currently only have 3000 watts of PV.   Probably not enough to sell any back to the utility.  Built in charger may get used on regular basis. 

Utility does allow net metering and credits at about 9 cents per kwh.  Not too bad since my average charge is about 12 cents per kwh.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 05:59 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hi Again: This thread is getting obfuscatingly fuzzy.

First if I may, I want to shed all the financial "stuff" and focus on the engineering and what the utility will allow.

Questions:

1. Does your utility have net metering?
2. If not, do they prohibit back feeding of electricity, paid or unpaid?
3. If they prohibit any production to the grid, then and only then does you current "track" make engineering since. 
4. If they allow production to the grid, grid tie at a low level makes sense to reduce your grid load even without net-metering.              The trick is to size the grid-tie array to only produce as little production to them as possible, yet kill a majority of your load.
5. The reason I am asking this is I detected in your response about preventing back feed to be rather explicit, as if to not break rules...???....
6. I didn't look to see if your inverter has what I would call IEEE normal instantaneous disconnect. THAT IS A MUST from an engineering perspective. Having both your inverter active and the grid active at the same time, or yours active and connected to a down grid is a SHOW STOPPER!!. Now I am guessing that with the international cert for grid connect, it will not have a head on collision with any grid, but you need to specifically check that spec, and get your utilities approval, assuming they allow grid connect in the first place.

I would seriously try to keep the engineering decisions separate from money issues. It will not help the clarity of the end result if you don't.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:49 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 6:45:00 PM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, I know you have had trouble getting guidance on how to achieve your goals for affordable solar, but please understand, the way you are approaching this is not the best way and in fact may doo you to failure.  The steps for going solar are first to decide in you needs. Then start putting a design on paper, looking at available components, prices, and adjusting your design and refining it to fit your budget and your needs, and capturing requirements of the utility, the NEC, etc. Then ask for advice or do additionalt research to verify your design is solid.  Then after all those steps, is the proper time to start buying equipment.

That inverter you bought cannot be used in a hybrid or grid-tied system. Utilities will not let you connect an inverter that is not IEEE1547 compliant and UL 1741 Listed. So you will not be able to build a system with it that will help save you money on your electric bill. You can use it to  build a completely off-grid system, but it will be separate from the grid, i.e. you will be on grid with no solar until grid power is down, then you can switch over to your off-grid system via a transfer swith or some other mechanism. The result is you will spend a lot of money for one week of having power when the grid goes down. There are lots of other requirements like rapid shutdown, arc-fault detection, etc that you will need to consider as well when selecting components.

From what you have said previously what you really need is a hybrid system, that is grid-tied and saving you money all year by reducing your utility usage, and that can switch to grid-forming operation on loss of grid.  If I were you I would try and return that inverter.

This is another reason why solar installation companies do not want to work with DIYers, because they often want to buy components and then ask to fit them into a solution. It just does not work.

I highly recommend you pause, don't buy anything futher, look into what can be returned, and follow the steps I gave above to get a solid approach and detailed design before you proceed.

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 01:30 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 3:00:00 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hello again...happy 4th BTW.

The inverter you have CAN back feed to the grid at the 240VAC and 60HZ of USA electricity. They for one reason or another did not get it certified for the USA. They call it internationally certified. AN interesting distinction, implying it can handle USA elect but did not get it specifically USA certified by USA certifing entities. A bureaucratic limitation, not engineering. 

SO if you cleared it with your utility, you could back feed excess for net-metering.

Nice inverter BTW. Check bottom of page 25 last picture for back feed diagram user manual. Attached screen shot.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 11:14 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

EG4 6000EX 48HV off grid split all in one inverter and 3 - EG4 LL 48v batteries 

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 10:43 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Logical steps. If you don't mind too much, can you provide the exact inverter (Mfg., Model, etc.) that you have in your possession?

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:50 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Thank you for the link. 

We are on the grid and currently grid dependent.  I want to have an off the grid battery backup system for when the grid goes down.  The inverter I bought does have a built in charger to top off the batteries from the grid but there will be no energy going back to the grid.  We had a week of no electric and no water this past winter.  

So, the current projects either in progress or in the planning stage:

Off grid solar with battery backup.

Wood stove.

Rainwater harvesting.

Water reuse.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-02-2023 10:15 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

I am late to the party commenting on this. Just as a clarification, are you totally off grid doing the system or are you grid tie and wanting to make your "place" off grid capable?

A great site that's been around forever is:

https://www.builditsolar.com/

especially if you are doing it yourself.

Not knowing at this moment your answer to the above, if you are totally off grid, you tend to be viewed a step down. There are many reasons for this, some of them inherent in that functionality, some political and some Capitalistic.

I hope that site can help you from the technical side....

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2023 10:24 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

------------------------------
lester germanio
------------------------------

I think my problem mostly was that I was not in the target market.  Numbers really do not work without the tax credit, even with a close to median income.  Even less chance with a costly battery backup.  The system to maximize the sales price requires the system to be designed around canceling out the utility bill and using a maximum tax credit.  My cost per month without the batteries and without the tax credit was already too high.  Batteries are the first thing that have to be axed.  Since the back-up is what I wanted the most, I got to feeling the only way for me to do the project was to piece it together myself.  So here I am. 

I have given up on finding a solar installer to consult with or to wire my system.  I have an electrician who says he has some PV experience coming over this next week to see if he wants to get involved.  

I am happy I am not in your business.  With the interest rates going up, your small market has got to be shrinking fast.

Hi Lester, I think I understand where you are coming from and I just want to clarify. When you say "just like you, they generally thought I didn't need the battery backup", that is not just like me.  A solar PV system should meet the specific needs of each customer. I never tell anyone they "don't need" a feature. However, I feel it is my responsibility to provide insight and context around options to consider, so the customer can make an educated decision that is right for them. When I look back on this thread, it does seem like there has been a disconnect between what you are doing as plan B, and what you initially talked about with the installers who quoted you.  Your plan B seems to be a smaller, 3kW to 6kW PV array, and 14.8kWh of storage, with a primary goal to be resilient and have power available that is not reliant on the grid.  So if those installation companies were proposing a 14kW array and 18kWh (just a guess here) of storage for whole house backup, and the cost was $45k to $50k, and you were asking for something different, you should have insisted they listen to you and modify their proposal accordingly.  If they would not oblige, then get a quote from another installer that will listen to your needs.  What I and others here have been trying to do is show you how those specific needs you have can be met by installing a PV system that utilizes a hybrid inverter that can provide that battery backup power but also benefit you financially when the grid is operating fine.  The problem is that you selected an incompatible inverter to do so, and you seem committed to it.  I am confident that if you were to get a fair quote from and installer for a 6kWdc array with a hybrid inverter and about 15kWh of storage, it would cost significantly less than $45k to $50k, and your net long term cost would actually be much less, since when in grid-tied mode it would generate income for you. Of course, it still may be more than you can afford up-front, and that is understandable, especially when considering your point that for many Americans they cannot take advantage of the ITC because of their income bracket.

OK. SO you already have the cheese on the side. Then you should be fine. You can parallel the two. But the connections for two separate using AC coupling is tricky because there will be no way to regulate the power from the grid tie to the batteries in a grid down scenario. When the power fails, you will have to turn off the grid tie to prevent battery overcharge. Now that said, there will be those that will tell you that you can use battery max voltage settings to hold the "overcharge" at bay. Practically speaking, is is not a good idea, especially with Lithium batteries and BLM's. That's where the combined inverter/charger/back feed has value. 

The way I have mine setup is the grid tie is AC coupled to the Xantrex, but they really do not "get along" in grid out operation. SO I have my barn array feed the batteries through a 6KW charge controller and I turn off the grid tie so the whole system remains stable when the grid is down.

But you need allot of electrical design knowledge to get that whole thing right, along with the practical skills of installation. Additionally, you had better ask your utility if they require certified installers or can you use outside certification (Inspectors) to pass their requirements. If the utility requires certified solar installers, you are screwed from any grid tie aspect.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-05-2023 09:09 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/5/2023 11:42:00 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

The point is the solution is exactly the same regarding either choice. Straight grid tie inverters VS hybrid inverters (Inverter/charger) are not that different in cost (Sense you said "Too much" above).

The batteries are the expensive part. If you had bought a Sol-Ark or Xantrex (Schneider Electric) hybrid inverter that would not have been a cert issue for the USA, you would have both the active back feed and battery backup as well, without utility complaint. It is not some Binary forced choice. It would be like ordering a burger, fries and a Coke but saying I don't want the fries, when basically you already paid for them. The Batteries are the fries but you should have gotten the burger with cheese.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-05-2023 08:19 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

The estimates i got were in the $45,000 to $50,000. range for a grid connected with battery backup system.  Even with a $2500. rebate, I can't do that.  

I completely understand where all of you are coming from.  And how all of you are coming up with the same solution.  Lets say there is a chance that the context changes.  Your solution is based on saving money on the utility bill.  What happens if a proxy war participant pops an EMP over each coast and knocks out the grid?  Or something simple and a much more likely economic collapse happens and the grid folks opt not to supply their stuff without compensation?  

So what is your recommended solution for the nutjob client that just wants an affordable just in case off grid battery backup system to provide some minimal amount of power over the long term in the context that the grid and utility bills are no longer in the equation?  

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-04-2023 11:44 AM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, is this a roof-mounted PV array, or ground mount? And where specifically will the inverter be installed, inside the home?

Also, are you in Austin Energy territory?  If so, they have a $2500 rebate for residential solar. But, the system must be grid connected, so that inverter cannot be used. You can buy a Schneider XW Pro for about $3,000, which is a much better inverter and is UL Listed and IEEE compliant for US grid. The EG4 website says that their ESS (batteries) may be compatible with the Schneider Xanbus protocol. You would need a charge controller as well to charge the batteries from the PV array, as the inverter can only charge batteriess from grid or generate AC from the batteries.  Also recommended is the Power Dist Panel (PDP) from Schneider, s couple of ckt breakers you will need, and also their MPPT DisconnectRS rapid shutdown controller/switch.  Yes you will spend more money up front, but you will get $2500 rebate, and you will get INCOME from the system when the sun is out.

The average US home uses 10,600 kWh of energy anually, which works oout to an average of about 1.2kW constantly all day all year. If you home is close to that average, you will at times use much more than that and at times use lesss htan that. When the sun is out and your home is only using 400W, then you will have kWh produced just wasted, assuming your batteries are full.  Why not get paid for it?

-Ken

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 07:41 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

program 09  --  Grd  --  solar energy feed to grid configuration --  feed to grid disable (default setting)  --  Solar energy back feed to grid disable.  THIS (ENABLE) SETTING IS NOT CERTIFIED FOR THE UNITED STATES.   

Seems like I would need to change a default setting to back feed.  I will make sure and check that setting when I am up and running.  I do not want to back feed to the grid.  I only want to have a minimal back up battery system with PV.   I like the fact that it has a built in charger and I want to use it with the feed back disabled.  I currently only have 3000 watts of PV.   Probably not enough to sell any back to the utility.  Built in charger may get used on regular basis. 

Utility does allow net metering and credits at about 9 cents per kwh.  Not too bad since my average charge is about 12 cents per kwh.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 05:59 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hi Again: This thread is getting obfuscatingly fuzzy.

First if I may, I want to shed all the financial "stuff" and focus on the engineering and what the utility will allow.

Questions:

1. Does your utility have net metering?
2. If not, do they prohibit back feeding of electricity, paid or unpaid?
3. If they prohibit any production to the grid, then and only then does you current "track" make engineering since. 
4. If they allow production to the grid, grid tie at a low level makes sense to reduce your grid load even without net-metering.              The trick is to size the grid-tie array to only produce as little production to them as possible, yet kill a majority of your load.
5. The reason I am asking this is I detected in your response about preventing back feed to be rather explicit, as if to not break rules...???....
6. I didn't look to see if your inverter has what I would call IEEE normal instantaneous disconnect. THAT IS A MUST from an engineering perspective. Having both your inverter active and the grid active at the same time, or yours active and connected to a down grid is a SHOW STOPPER!!. Now I am guessing that with the international cert for grid connect, it will not have a head on collision with any grid, but you need to specifically check that spec, and get your utilities approval, assuming they allow grid connect in the first place.

I would seriously try to keep the engineering decisions separate from money issues. It will not help the clarity of the end result if you don't.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:49 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 6:45:00 PM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, I know you have had trouble getting guidance on how to achieve your goals for affordable solar, but please understand, the way you are approaching this is not the best way and in fact may doo you to failure.  The steps for going solar are first to decide in you needs. Then start putting a design on paper, looking at available components, prices, and adjusting your design and refining it to fit your budget and your needs, and capturing requirements of the utility, the NEC, etc. Then ask for advice or do additionalt research to verify your design is solid.  Then after all those steps, is the proper time to start buying equipment.

That inverter you bought cannot be used in a hybrid or grid-tied system. Utilities will not let you connect an inverter that is not IEEE1547 compliant and UL 1741 Listed. So you will not be able to build a system with it that will help save you money on your electric bill. You can use it to  build a completely off-grid system, but it will be separate from the grid, i.e. you will be on grid with no solar until grid power is down, then you can switch over to your off-grid system via a transfer swith or some other mechanism. The result is you will spend a lot of money for one week of having power when the grid goes down. There are lots of other requirements like rapid shutdown, arc-fault detection, etc that you will need to consider as well when selecting components.

From what you have said previously what you really need is a hybrid system, that is grid-tied and saving you money all year by reducing your utility usage, and that can switch to grid-forming operation on loss of grid.  If I were you I would try and return that inverter.

This is another reason why solar installation companies do not want to work with DIYers, because they often want to buy components and then ask to fit them into a solution. It just does not work.

I highly recommend you pause, don't buy anything futher, look into what can be returned, and follow the steps I gave above to get a solid approach and detailed design before you proceed.

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 01:30 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 3:00:00 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hello again...happy 4th BTW.

The inverter you have CAN back feed to the grid at the 240VAC and 60HZ of USA electricity. They for one reason or another did not get it certified for the USA. They call it internationally certified. AN interesting distinction, implying it can handle USA elect but did not get it specifically USA certified by USA certifing entities. A bureaucratic limitation, not engineering. 

SO if you cleared it with your utility, you could back feed excess for net-metering.

Nice inverter BTW. Check bottom of page 25 last picture for back feed diagram user manual. Attached screen shot.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 11:14 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

EG4 6000EX 48HV off grid split all in one inverter and 3 - EG4 LL 48v batteries 

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 10:43 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Logical steps. If you don't mind too much, can you provide the exact inverter (Mfg., Model, etc.) that you have in your possession?

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:50 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Thank you for the link. 

We are on the grid and currently grid dependent.  I want to have an off the grid battery backup system for when the grid goes down.  The inverter I bought does have a built in charger to top off the batteries from the grid but there will be no energy going back to the grid.  We had a week of no electric and no water this past winter.  

So, the current projects either in progress or in the planning stage:

Off grid solar with battery backup.

Wood stove.

Rainwater harvesting.

Water reuse.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-02-2023 10:15 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

I am late to the party commenting on this. Just as a clarification, are you totally off grid doing the system or are you grid tie and wanting to make your "place" off grid capable?

A great site that's been around forever is:

https://www.builditsolar.com/

especially if you are doing it yourself.

Not knowing at this moment your answer to the above, if you are totally off grid, you tend to be viewed a step down. There are many reasons for this, some of them inherent in that functionality, some political and some Capitalistic.

I hope that site can help you from the technical side....

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2023 10:24 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

It appears to me from telemarketers and from the on-line interface between potential solar energy clients and the solar energy industry that half of US homeowner are being left out.  That half that do not pay income taxes.  It also appears that finance companies have become the gatekeepers.   Qualifying questions typically include credit score and amount of taxes paid even before the dollar amount of electric bills.  I am in the process of doing an DIY off grid battery backup used panels cash and barter system.  I have not been able to find an expert solar installer/electrician to either consult with or contract with.   All the real solar energy installers who are in the business of creating debt for the finance companies have had very little time to talk to me.  Is this a correct observation of the current solar energy industry in the US?      

------------------------------
lester germanio
------------------------------

It is my understanding that the Inflation Reduction Act, passed into law last November, provides the amount of the 30% income tax credit for PV and battery installations to non-profits, local governments, and homeowners who do not have a tax obligation.  Details are starting to come out regarding how to apply.

------------------------------
Stu Besnoff
owner
Alpine Solar Heat and Hot Water, LLC

Original Message:
Sent: 07-07-2023 09:27 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

I think my problem mostly was that I was not in the target market.  Numbers really do not work without the tax credit, even with a close to median income.  Even less chance with a costly battery backup.  The system to maximize the sales price requires the system to be designed around canceling out the utility bill and using a maximum tax credit.  My cost per month without the batteries and without the tax credit was already too high.  Batteries are the first thing that have to be axed.  Since the back-up is what I wanted the most, I got to feeling the only way for me to do the project was to piece it together myself.  So here I am. 

I have given up on finding a solar installer to consult with or to wire my system.  I have an electrician who says he has some PV experience coming over this next week to see if he wants to get involved.  

I am happy I am not in your business.  With the interest rates going up, your small market has got to be shrinking fast.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-07-2023 08:39 AM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hi Lester, I think I understand where you are coming from and I just want to clarify. When you say "just like you, they generally thought I didn't need the battery backup", that is not just like me.  A solar PV system should meet the specific needs of each customer. I never tell anyone they "don't need" a feature. However, I feel it is my responsibility to provide insight and context around options to consider, so the customer can make an educated decision that is right for them. When I look back on this thread, it does seem like there has been a disconnect between what you are doing as plan B, and what you initially talked about with the installers who quoted you.  Your plan B seems to be a smaller, 3kW to 6kW PV array, and 14.8kWh of storage, with a primary goal to be resilient and have power available that is not reliant on the grid.  So if those installation companies were proposing a 14kW array and 18kWh (just a guess here) of storage for whole house backup, and the cost was $45k to $50k, and you were asking for something different, you should have insisted they listen to you and modify their proposal accordingly.  If they would not oblige, then get a quote from another installer that will listen to your needs.  What I and others here have been trying to do is show you how those specific needs you have can be met by installing a PV system that utilizes a hybrid inverter that can provide that battery backup power but also benefit you financially when the grid is operating fine.  The problem is that you selected an incompatible inverter to do so, and you seem committed to it.  I am confident that if you were to get a fair quote from and installer for a 6kWdc array with a hybrid inverter and about 15kWh of storage, it would cost significantly less than $45k to $50k, and your net long term cost would actually be much less, since when in grid-tied mode it would generate income for you. Of course, it still may be more than you can afford up-front, and that is understandable, especially when considering your point that for many Americans they cannot take advantage of the ITC because of their income bracket.

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-05-2023 10:41 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/5/2023 12:31:00 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

OK. SO you already have the cheese on the side. Then you should be fine. You can parallel the two. But the connections for two separate using AC coupling is tricky because there will be no way to regulate the power from the grid tie to the batteries in a grid down scenario. When the power fails, you will have to turn off the grid tie to prevent battery overcharge. Now that said, there will be those that will tell you that you can use battery max voltage settings to hold the "overcharge" at bay. Practically speaking, is is not a good idea, especially with Lithium batteries and BLM's. That's where the combined inverter/charger/back feed has value. 

The way I have mine setup is the grid tie is AC coupled to the Xantrex, but they really do not "get along" in grid out operation. SO I have my barn array feed the batteries through a 6KW charge controller and I turn off the grid tie so the whole system remains stable when the grid is down.

But you need allot of electrical design knowledge to get that whole thing right, along with the practical skills of installation. Additionally, you had better ask your utility if they require certified installers or can you use outside certification (Inspectors) to pass their requirements. If the utility requires certified solar installers, you are screwed from any grid tie aspect.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-05-2023 09:09 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/5/2023 11:42:00 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

The point is the solution is exactly the same regarding either choice. Straight grid tie inverters VS hybrid inverters (Inverter/charger) are not that different in cost (Sense you said "Too much" above).

The batteries are the expensive part. If you had bought a Sol-Ark or Xantrex (Schneider Electric) hybrid inverter that would not have been a cert issue for the USA, you would have both the active back feed and battery backup as well, without utility complaint. It is not some Binary forced choice. It would be like ordering a burger, fries and a Coke but saying I don't want the fries, when basically you already paid for them. The Batteries are the fries but you should have gotten the burger with cheese.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-05-2023 08:19 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

The estimates i got were in the $45,000 to $50,000. range for a grid connected with battery backup system.  Even with a $2500. rebate, I can't do that.  

I completely understand where all of you are coming from.  And how all of you are coming up with the same solution.  Lets say there is a chance that the context changes.  Your solution is based on saving money on the utility bill.  What happens if a proxy war participant pops an EMP over each coast and knocks out the grid?  Or something simple and a much more likely economic collapse happens and the grid folks opt not to supply their stuff without compensation?  

So what is your recommended solution for the nutjob client that just wants an affordable just in case off grid battery backup system to provide some minimal amount of power over the long term in the context that the grid and utility bills are no longer in the equation?  

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-04-2023 11:44 AM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, is this a roof-mounted PV array, or ground mount? And where specifically will the inverter be installed, inside the home?

Also, are you in Austin Energy territory?  If so, they have a $2500 rebate for residential solar. But, the system must be grid connected, so that inverter cannot be used. You can buy a Schneider XW Pro for about $3,000, which is a much better inverter and is UL Listed and IEEE compliant for US grid. The EG4 website says that their ESS (batteries) may be compatible with the Schneider Xanbus protocol. You would need a charge controller as well to charge the batteries from the PV array, as the inverter can only charge batteriess from grid or generate AC from the batteries.  Also recommended is the Power Dist Panel (PDP) from Schneider, s couple of ckt breakers you will need, and also their MPPT DisconnectRS rapid shutdown controller/switch.  Yes you will spend more money up front, but you will get $2500 rebate, and you will get INCOME from the system when the sun is out.

The average US home uses 10,600 kWh of energy anually, which works oout to an average of about 1.2kW constantly all day all year. If you home is close to that average, you will at times use much more than that and at times use lesss htan that. When the sun is out and your home is only using 400W, then you will have kWh produced just wasted, assuming your batteries are full.  Why not get paid for it?

-Ken

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 07:41 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

program 09  --  Grd  --  solar energy feed to grid configuration --  feed to grid disable (default setting)  --  Solar energy back feed to grid disable.  THIS (ENABLE) SETTING IS NOT CERTIFIED FOR THE UNITED STATES.   

Seems like I would need to change a default setting to back feed.  I will make sure and check that setting when I am up and running.  I do not want to back feed to the grid.  I only want to have a minimal back up battery system with PV.   I like the fact that it has a built in charger and I want to use it with the feed back disabled.  I currently only have 3000 watts of PV.   Probably not enough to sell any back to the utility.  Built in charger may get used on regular basis. 

Utility does allow net metering and credits at about 9 cents per kwh.  Not too bad since my average charge is about 12 cents per kwh.

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 05:59 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hi Again: This thread is getting obfuscatingly fuzzy.

First if I may, I want to shed all the financial "stuff" and focus on the engineering and what the utility will allow.

Questions:

1. Does your utility have net metering?
2. If not, do they prohibit back feeding of electricity, paid or unpaid?
3. If they prohibit any production to the grid, then and only then does you current "track" make engineering since. 
4. If they allow production to the grid, grid tie at a low level makes sense to reduce your grid load even without net-metering.              The trick is to size the grid-tie array to only produce as little production to them as possible, yet kill a majority of your load.
5. The reason I am asking this is I detected in your response about preventing back feed to be rather explicit, as if to not break rules...???....
6. I didn't look to see if your inverter has what I would call IEEE normal instantaneous disconnect. THAT IS A MUST from an engineering perspective. Having both your inverter active and the grid active at the same time, or yours active and connected to a down grid is a SHOW STOPPER!!. Now I am guessing that with the international cert for grid connect, it will not have a head on collision with any grid, but you need to specifically check that spec, and get your utilities approval, assuming they allow grid connect in the first place.

I would seriously try to keep the engineering decisions separate from money issues. It will not help the clarity of the end result if you don't.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 04:49 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 6:45:00 PM
From: Ken Nadsady
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Lester, I know you have had trouble getting guidance on how to achieve your goals for affordable solar, but please understand, the way you are approaching this is not the best way and in fact may doo you to failure.  The steps for going solar are first to decide in you needs. Then start putting a design on paper, looking at available components, prices, and adjusting your design and refining it to fit your budget and your needs, and capturing requirements of the utility, the NEC, etc. Then ask for advice or do additionalt research to verify your design is solid.  Then after all those steps, is the proper time to start buying equipment.

That inverter you bought cannot be used in a hybrid or grid-tied system. Utilities will not let you connect an inverter that is not IEEE1547 compliant and UL 1741 Listed. So you will not be able to build a system with it that will help save you money on your electric bill. You can use it to  build a completely off-grid system, but it will be separate from the grid, i.e. you will be on grid with no solar until grid power is down, then you can switch over to your off-grid system via a transfer swith or some other mechanism. The result is you will spend a lot of money for one week of having power when the grid goes down. There are lots of other requirements like rapid shutdown, arc-fault detection, etc that you will need to consider as well when selecting components.

From what you have said previously what you really need is a hybrid system, that is grid-tied and saving you money all year by reducing your utility usage, and that can switch to grid-forming operation on loss of grid.  If I were you I would try and return that inverter.

This is another reason why solar installation companies do not want to work with DIYers, because they often want to buy components and then ask to fit them into a solution. It just does not work.

I highly recommend you pause, don't buy anything futher, look into what can be returned, and follow the steps I gave above to get a solid approach and detailed design before you proceed.

------------------------------
Ken Nadsady
AviSun Renewable Energy
Hudson OH

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 01:30 PM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Original Message:
Sent: 7/3/2023 3:00:00 PM
From: william fitch
Subject: RE: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

Hello again...happy 4th BTW.

The inverter you have CAN back feed to the grid at the 240VAC and 60HZ of USA electricity. They for one reason or another did not get it certified for the USA. They call it internationally certified. AN interesting distinction, implying it can handle USA elect but did not get it specifically USA certified by USA certifing entities. A bureaucratic limitation, not engineering. 

SO if you cleared it with your utility, you could back feed excess for net-metering.

Nice inverter BTW. Check bottom of page 25 last picture for back feed diagram user manual. Attached screen shot.

------------------------------
william fitch
Owner
www.WeAreSolar.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 11:14 AM
From: lester germanio
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside

EG4 6000EX 48HV off grid split all in one inverter and 3 - EG4 LL 48v batteries 

------------------------------
lester germanio

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2023 10:43 AM
From: william fitch
Subject: Solar energy -- observation from the outside