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Sunpower service

  • 1.  Sunpower service

    Posted 10-16-2022 02:45 PM
    I have a 5 kw roof system using sunpower panels. Installed 10 years ago and under warranty. 

    Two years ago the monitor that provides real time data to sunpower and subsequently to me failed. After more than six weeks a totally new monitoring system was installed with a new 10 year warranty. 

    But it used a 3G cellular link. Well since June when 3G was shutdown I have had no monitoring. Fortunately the power company shows generation is as expected. 

    I have spend untold hours the last six weeks trying to get this corrected. Without success and to many stupid things to recount. 

    My advice to all is when a provider like sunpower uses others to do their work you may be a very long time getting any work done. 

    Be wary of using sunpower. Not sure if others have similar experiences. 


  • 2.  RE: Sunpower service

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 10-17-2022 10:00 AM
    Edited by william fitch 10-17-2022 10:07 AM

    First off a disclaimer. Allot of people may not like what I am about to say regarding comms..

    SunPower makes potentially some of the best panels in the world. I have a mixture of E20 327's and Xseries 327's from back in the 2013-2015 days. You cannot go wrong with their panels.
    Regarding data connections. This is what happens when you send your data connection half way around the world to get the info from your "backyard" into your house. It is like mailing a letter from your array to yourself in your own home. I have central inverters that have I-net capability, which I don't use. If I want to see what I produced anytime of the day, I simply walk out to my barn/garage and look at the screen. I have a 512MB USB that sits in my main inverter and records the data every 5 minutes while the inverter is up for historical reference. You see, I don't have to worry about what specifications any given comms provider decides to use or not use. They are irrelevant. Kind of like owning an EV and not worrying about gas prices or its availability. 
    In short, keep your data local. If you have to use connectivity, use methodologies that are unlikely to change or go obsolete. Or you can K.I.S.S and email a data file.

    Somewhat ironic I had a random person call me a month ago looking for someone to fix their Enphase comms gateway because they could no longer see any data regarding their micro inverter based solar array, and they had no clue how to know if they were producing power. There is an un-warranted fixation on the instant gratification of seeing your "data" at any given instant on one's phone. How much of that is REALLY necessary, rather than just being a curiosity. And as a side note, the use of micro inverters by solar installers over central inverters where site conditions DO NOT make it necessary is also something that needs to be called out. Central inverters are cheaper watt for watt, more efficient distance for distance (Higher voltage) and handle peak availability easier.

    Regarding your situation, if you have a central inverter with your system, you should be able to get a Cat5 connection, RS-422 or Modbus connection for data reception via hard line. Hardline, like the connection Neo needed to get out of the Matrix.....

    Additionally on service after the sale, I think you can find bad service anywhere independent of product quality, for anything in the world manufactured.



    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    fcfcfc@ptd.net
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  • 3.  RE: Sunpower service

    Posted 10-17-2022 10:44 AM
    William thank you for your time to reply and this information. 

    I have car 5 wiring and a central inverter so from what I understand just insert a USB data storage device in the inverter. How is the data read from the thumb drive?

    Harlan






  • 4.  RE: Sunpower service

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 10-17-2022 12:31 PM
    Edited by william fitch 10-17-2022 12:40 PM
    Generally speaking, if you use the thumb drive, you would retrieve it physically when you want to "dump" the data file to your local computer and then you have to "interpret" the file structure into a form that makes sense for totaling info... What I mean by that is the data collected may be in a "form", like the number of joules produced in 5 minutes that on the surface is not immediately recognizable as lets say how many KWH did I gen this month. In short you have to dump it into a spreadsheet and run some "calcs" on it for the totals you are looking for.
    If you have a cat5 hardline connection, you should be able to hit it as a network client (Via IP address and submask, etc..) and open a program (potentially the Inverter mfg. app), or just open a browser and put in the local IP as you assigned (Static) and the inverter probably has the code and hardware to be a web server, with associated menus and data. Its going to vary from mfg. to mfg.. on exactly how you do it. Once you have the setup and know the sequence, it should be a walk in the park, without the headache of bygone protocols.

    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    fcfcfc@ptd.net
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Sunpower service

    Posted 10-18-2022 12:26 PM
    I once had a small array with one of those enphase envoy things that allowed me to walk in the shed and read what was going on.  It supposedly had internet ability, but I never turned it on--I just read the display every  so often.   As you say, I also can walk.  When all the inverters all fried (apparently due to power spikes on the line), the upgrade came with the new $500 communications thing that really I didn't want, but the install company insisted on it.  So now we have two phone apps, because we also got a powerwall (actually my wife has them--I refused to install them).  From my perspective one of the main draws of solar (beside being renewable energy) is that the components are generally pretty maintenance free--I'd rather there never be any computers or internet involved.  I'm happy to be generating my own power again, and given the rural location, having a battery has also been great, but I sure wish it didn't come with all the complicated tech junk.

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    Bob Scheulen
    bobs@sensiblehouse.org
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  • 6.  RE: Sunpower service

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 10-19-2022 08:13 AM
    After telling a homeowner that I would activate his SolarEdge SE7600 grid tied inverter, then we could decide about the communication method for monitoring, the post from Bill Fitch described the benefit of just using the screen on the inverter.  The post was saved, so it could be quoted, to convince the homeowner to keep it simple.
       My plan had to be changed because the latest SE7600 inverters (same model number, later serial numbers) do not have a screen or user interface push buttons.  The only information available by looking at the inverter is from a few small LEDs at the bottom.  Now my phone has the App for activating and commissioning, although my preference is to push the buttons (if they were there) on the inverter.

    ------------------------------
    Stu Besnoff
    owner
    Alpine Solar Heat and Hot Water, LLC
    stu@alpineSolarheat.com
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Sunpower service

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 10-19-2022 09:18 AM
    Edited by william fitch 10-19-2022 09:19 AM
    Yes, SolarEdge was one of the first inverter companies to move in the wireless/phone direction. They all will probably do it eventually because it cuts cost, and that has priority over anything else, including how good, or not good it makes a product. There are still plenty of inverter companies that make inverters with active displays.
    All this "remote" connection capability is being pushed because the utilities want to be able to control YOUR inverter. In my territory, PPL has their latest connection diagrams for the central inverters for residential installations, located on the "other side" of the main breaker panel, meaning the power companies side. Think about that for a moment. That means that when the power goes down, IE the grid, and you go to invoke backup power for all our loads off your main panel, you most likely will not have control over that solar resource for you backup benefit, if you wire it that way, rather than through a breaker ON YOUR main panel. This is all the kind of overreach that the whole DER agenda is promoting. But I am sure 95% of the people would be totally clueless about any details like that and simply want it to work and GO ALONG with the "flow", like they already do in the rest of their life choices.

    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    fcfcfc@ptd.net
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Sunpower service

    Posted 10-24-2022 07:36 AM
    This from William Fitch's OP: "This is what happens when you send your data connection half way around the world to get the info from your "backyard" into your house."
    And: "In short, keep your data local. If you have to use connectivity, use methodologies that are unlikely to change or go obsolete. Or you can K.I.S.S and email a data file."
    Thanks for saying what at least some of us were thinking!  I get calls like this too, and I'd rather teach a man to fish, and show them how they don't actually need some app on their phone to generate electricity.  If there's background stuff that needs to happen with the utility or the financial institution, that's a different case.  Taking these needs into account helps to comprise better service after sale. 
    I've been following a similar discussion thread taking place on a totally different RSS feed:
    There are some crazy--and embarrassing--stories in that thread!  As the OP in that thread says, "I am not interested at all in connecting something that should help me get off the grid to the internet. Combine that with security issues and I'm starting to think we're collectively folding our arms behind our back and intentionally falling forwards."
    For me, it's just a shame in general that a product and industry promoting itself as adding resilience to people's lives, in opposition to an ever-mounting current of well-funded criticism from the fossil fuel industry (e.g. Texas cold snap deaths blamed on renewables in some media), could indulge itself the soft underbelly of reliance on Big Tech and, perhaps just as bad, more ephemeral small tech vendors that may or may not still be around in 20 years, when the modules are still cranking. 
    When I was first working towards a cert at SEI in the early 2000's, solar was first entering its current boom, and all the graybeards left in the industry from the pre-Reagan era were ingrained with an abundance of caution from the bad rap on reliability that renewable technologies had received decades before, and they drilled it into us that every array had to just work, like no fudging on shading or orientation or any other inefficiencies.  SolarCity, at least in my area, kind of blew that away with scale and connectivity, and started throwing up arrays willy-nilly, because big data could save them on some of those inefficiencies. 
    But then you get situations like one poster writes: "I found out about the Internet connectivity requirement for the warranty _after_ it was on my wall and producing power - and when you've spent five figures on a system with a 25-year warranty, unfortunately I had to suck up my pride and let it phone home to the manufacturer's cloud. It now sits on a separate VLAN for "untrusted" devices."
    I think this is a bigger deal than people anticipate.  I think "smart homes" are more of a boondoggle than people recognize, despite a legitimate need for some of that intelligence embedded in residential mechanical systems.  And I think we as an industry should be paying attention to this.  I don't know much about data transparency vs. security, or open source vs. proprietary, but I know almost nothing I had with a screen on it 25 years ago, except maybe a TI-30SLR calculator, is still working.  I don't know whether that makes a worthy design principle, I'm just hoping to provoke more discussion towards that end.   





  • 9.  RE: Sunpower service

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 10-24-2022 09:40 AM
    WOW!! Did you step on a land mine regarding "things" that I think about. I will resist severely, expanding all the "hot thoughts" you just hit on, for I devote many articles on my BLOG site regarding those things, but more importantly, the connections that form the whole global "direction" regarding those kind of elements.
    I was in I.T. for over 40 years, software and hardware, and have forgotten more about "computers" than most people will ever know, and I really do not say that with any arrogance. 
    With a kind of sadistic enthusiasm, I can't wait for the next Carrington X-class super flare to fry all the electronics on this planet. It will be like the end of the movie, "Transcendence", but without the molecular level pollution ridding Nano tech to clean up our chemical mess while everyone is walking around actually talking to one another, communicating IN PERSON.

    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    fcfcfc@ptd.net
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Sunpower service

    Posted 10-24-2022 10:18 AM
    Hahaha I too keep considering another Carrington event.  More like the end of the movie Don't Look Up, probably. 

    Data is helpful, but when poorly managed, becomes more of a hindrance, or at least less helpful than it's worth.  Resilient systems should be designed with this in mind, not solely data-driven or dependent.  I'm not saying companies like Sunpower, which makes fine products, are integrating connectivity into everything just for a profit motive, since it can add functionality.  It probably has more to do with manufacturing at scale, like how all cars come with automatic transmissions and power everything now--it's just easier to build one set of tooling for your assembly lines. 

    But that also verges into, "why does a Google Nest have a microphone in it without any consumer-facing presence?" questions. https://mackeeper.com/blog/google-nest-secret-microphone/ I just think there will be enough backlash against all this spyware in everything, or even just having to update my toothbrush's firmware, https://www.usa.philips.com/c-t/XC000016868/my-sonicare-toothbrush-does-not-charge or whatever silliness, that consumers will want choice and control back again, and well before their solar arrays age out in a couple of decades.  At least Tesla Powerwalls can't drive themselves back to the dealer if you miss a payment? 

    Great site, great hats, btw.  I thought you were probably an IT guy lol

    ------------------------------
    Stephen Raborn
    Lead Installer
    Green Fox Solar, LLC
    Beltsville MD
    steve@greenfoxsolar.com
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Sunpower service

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 10-24-2022 11:12 AM
    Edited by william fitch 10-24-2022 11:14 AM
    Thanks for the reply. 
    That's my main site as tied to my profile. 
    My blog site is:
    https://fcfcfcwearesolar.blogspot.com/

    Topics there are not "business" but global connections and really why the world is the way it is from a connections and logic perspective, regarding all kinds of vectors. 

    Your statement, "I'm not saying companies like SunPower, which makes fine products, are integrating connectivity into everything just for a profit motive, since it can add functionality. " 

    But it is really, because if it does not serve a profit benefit at the end of a long or short road, it doesn't get done. To say it another way, "Capitalism benefits society only by accident or coincidence along the path to profit."

    TFTD (Thought For The Day) # 122 which is actually on my main site but a few clicks of the main page, happens to be way longer than the usual TFTD (5 or 10 words), but expresses some connections regarding your noted sentence.

    "Theoretical capitalism and its associated free market can never exist in reality. The end result is a single company owning the world (Monopoly) which of course is the very result you get when playing the game, though in the real world, it takes a bit longer to achieve that end, with many, many "bumps" along the way. Government used to be and MUST be the stop gap to prevent that singular result, because the proper functioning of Democracy is in direct conflict with a currency based, capitalistic structure who's only unfettered outcome is a single entity. Once the government is bought by those very corporate entities in that system, its essential value (Government) was lost. Revolution was and is a direct result of the realities of a currency-based world mixed with human failings which results in a hierarchical structure that gives everything necessary for survival to those at the top and nothing to those at the bottom. This is untenable and thus Revolution. Money which has no physical reality as a double deep construct for our existence, has been given priority over planetary existence by human choice. This choice will prove fatal as long as it holds. Man by nature cannot be enslaved. SO, if man is to survive as MAN intact, the reality of a currency-based world must end."

    In George Orwell's book "1984", the most important HARD HITTING line in that whole book is, "Hierarchical society is only possible on the basis of poverty and ignorance." The surface meaning of that line is obvious, but I believe what's underneath gets missed. That being, what is George saying about choosing a hierarchical structure for human society?
    My take, "IT SUCKS". Choose lateral.




    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    fcfcfc@ptd.net
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Sunpower service

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 10-25-2022 01:18 PM
    My TI-30SLR calculator from 1982 is used frequently.  An AM/FM radio obtained during 1970 is plugged in and used every day.  Photovoltaic modules may last as long.  It would be nice to have an inverter (without the internet connection) designed to also last a long time.

    ------------------------------
    Stu Besnoff
    owner
    Alpine Solar Heat and Hot Water, LLC
    stu@alpineSolarheat.com
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Sunpower service

    Posted 10-17-2022 02:49 PM
    We also have a Sun Power system, 19.8kW. Our biggest problem has been getting our second 13kW battery installed. So far, we have been working with Sun Power since Nov. of 2021 when we paid up front for a 26kW battery and they could not deliver one. Told us they were working on a dual invertor 13kW battery system that was superior to the single 26kW system. Still waiting for the battery. We are very happy with our panels so far, our power bill has dropped from about $280 last year at this time to $67 per month. There service does seem to suffer somewhat and gives concern for any future problems we may have.

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    Barry Rosenberg
    British Car Service
    britcars@bellsouth.net
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Sunpower service

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 10-17-2022 03:00 PM
    You have ~20KW capacity. Are you net positive or better for the year?? You should be getting no less than 20MWH a year, assuming you have good orientation and access for the panels. Is your battery for backup power only, or are you daily cycling for TOU reasons?

    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    fcfcfc@ptd.net
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Sunpower service

    Posted 10-18-2022 06:19 AM
    Where we live, Jasper, Ga. our EMC, as does most of Georgia, does not do net metering. Right now, we pay 10.2 cents per kW we use from them and they pay us 3.8 cents per kW in return. We would need to return 3 times as much as we use. Our system does save us a lot of money each month but we still pay about $70 per month. For August and September, we generated 4,953 KWhs and we exported 2,997 kWhs to the grid. It saved us about $256 over the period. Once we get our 2nd battery for a total of 26 kW, we will use it to support the house when the panels are not producing. We will have most of our home run by the batteries except our HVAC system. As it is fairly old, it will have to wait another year for replacement with a more efficient unit. We are very happy with our system so far, just not happy with Sun Power. Their customer service seems lacking in response, especially when we paid for the battery back up up front to make sure we received 26kW of back up. They have been giving excuses for 7 months now on why we do not have it all installed.

    Barry Rosenberg





  • 16.  RE: Sunpower service

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 10-18-2022 07:32 AM
    Edited by william fitch 10-18-2022 07:34 AM
    WOW!! That's even worse than I thought. To be able to pay someone 2.7 times less for the exact same product they just sold you, is a reflection of the wealth and power severe inequity (Understated) which plays out in this country everyday. In short, your batteries will flatten production to prevent that inequity from being executed at the same scale. Doing that makes TOU look like the after thought cherry, on the hot fudge Sunday, after the main 7 course meal. 

    Regarding your second, CS after COVID is a scattered nightmare. I waited 10 months for my Rolls batteries (Best Lead solution product company). In contacting battery companies pre my order, I could not even get a return call or email from sales entities for a rough 10K$ order. In short, that's pretty bad. Since 2015 "vintage" or so, SunPower broke into two entities. The super panels they made, make, was spun off as Maxeon, the name being the same as the integrated platform they used to manufacture all the panels I initially referenced. The rest of the company took on the sales, marketing and installation coordination side along with flex panel MFG. That is a rough take on where they are. There may be specific flaws in my explanation of that transition, but its big picture.

    If I were to guess, I would say the delay is a mixture of COVID and engineering delays. You can't shutdown the globe for two years and expect business as usual in the same time frame. The ripples from Covid will be with us at least 5 years out, barring all the other $hit that is going on right now, be it internal or external.
    I hope eventually it all works out for you....
    .....Bill

    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    fcfcfc@ptd.net
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Sunpower service

    Chapter Leader
    Posted 10-18-2022 05:44 PM
    If you have wifi, try the Emporia monitoring system for the whole house. We have used it on some Habitat for Humanity homes to monitor energy load and generation.

    How the Gen 2 Vue Energy Monitor Works
    Emporiaenergy remove preview
    How the Gen 2 Vue Energy Monitor Works
    Track energy use in real time! The Vue Energy Monitor doesn't guess what appliances you have. It's connected directly to the circuits you care about, like your furnace, A/C, refrigerator, or solar generation. It monitors them 24/7. You can also add Emporia Smart Plugs to monitor the smaller things you care about.
    View this on Emporiaenergy >


    ------------------------------
    Rich Stromberg
    ESS Program Director
    Equitable Solar Solutions(TM)
    rstromberg@western.edu
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Sunpower service

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 11-02-2022 11:58 AM

    I've been reading this discussion with interest. If anyone with an IT background is interested in writing an op-ed explainer about some of these challenges for Solar Today's March issue, please message me. 



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    Kat Friedrich
    Editor in Chief
    ASES
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