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Thermal mass

  • 1.  Thermal mass

    ASES Award Winner
    Posted 24 days ago
    Happy 4th from NM. Adobe walls with mud plaster.  Hot here 99 outside, 78 inside. Sleep wirh blankets to our chins. Dirt works.


  • 2.  RE: Thermal mass

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 24 days ago

    Ya it does, but its not fixed, and climate dependent (Dry). And its not as expedient as wood framing or pure masonry. Its been out there as a solution for an easy 150+ years, but remains niche. One could say its coincidence, but probably not. And Psychologically, dirt is dirty, pun intended. 

    As far as happy 4th, ya I suppose. But if I were to be blunt, in this Nations history, this is probably the bleakest 4th ever with the current Fascist agenda being played out by the squatter, the totally compromised DOJ, some members of the FBI, SC, and a few hundred other complicit's in positions of power. Those alive in 1776 who fought for the Constitution, would be hurling up at where we are today, and 300 million people who won't stand up and take care of business....



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    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
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  • 3.  RE: Thermal mass

    ASES Award Winner
    Posted 24 days ago
    Dirt is not dirty. Yes dry climates. When you got it flaunt it. Other strategies for other climates. Taos Pueblo, 800 years occupied,  life cycle?
    Yes, country in trouble, but nows the time to be positive. Got no choice. Mark Chalom




    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Thermal mass

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 22 days ago

    90 F here, 74 inside with concrete thermal mass and no AC. With our cool nights, we could go lower if we wanted. JMHO, adobe is prettier!



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    M Keith Sharp
    Emeritus Professor
    Louisville KY
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  • 5.  RE: Thermal mass

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 22 days ago

    Assuming you are doing nighttime cooling to get it down a bit at night, depending on where you live, that can come with a big penalty. In the dry and arid areas, pollen and other related airborne particles are not such a big deal. But if you live in the farmlands (I do) the pollen and humidity is terrible in the growing seasons. You bring that in at night (The worst) and you had better be totally allergy proof. We used to do whole house fan night cooling before we had Geo-thermal.. It kept us cool but it was pretty bad as stated. Now with Geo, all that is really not a big deal. The sunnier and hotter it is, the more solar energy we have to cool. Winter is still the hardest because of the much reduced sun and cold temps.. 

    Masonry for thermal mass is good to a point, to smooth things out.. But it does make it harder to change the temp when you want to for "X" reasons.

    The best solutions are always a balancing act of the various +'s and -'s..



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    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
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    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Thermal mass

    Posted 21 days ago
    Here in Durango Colorado, at 7,000' elevation, our true adobe is very comfortable.
    Day to night outdoor temperatures can vary 40 degrees, from 90 degree days to 50 degree nights, perfect for night flushing.
    Unfortunately several days this week the air has been fairly toxic with smoke from wildfires burning in the region, opening up the windows for a night flush is not the wisest move.
    Fortunately our home is equipped with a HRV and two mini splits.
    We have excellent filtered & cooled air 24/7 and only sipping energy to run the equipment.
    We will go back to night flushing once the conditions allow but for now we are so glad to have this amazing 21st century technology!
    A passive solar design with a HRV & mini splits creates a super comfortable and healthy indoor living environment.

    As people say..... "climate change is just getting started"...... best to be prepared.


    Steve Kawell 



     



    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: Thermal mass

    Posted 21 days ago

    We are in northern California average temperature swings are between 40 and 50 degrees my house is stick framed with closed cell Insulation and a multizone Mini split VRF system and lots of PV (we're grid tied with on one of the only peak rates that is after the sun goes down @ 71 cents / Kw between 6 PM and midnight. to combat we use 25 kw of Lithium Ion battery storage for our house and my sons ADU (which is 8" ICF with Minisplit VRF's) all this with a shop and a garage and we were selling back excess power 24 hours a day the last 2 month Man I love summer.



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    Shawn Masterson Sr
    Mechanical Contractor
    Nor Cal Mechanical LLC
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  • 8.  RE: Thermal mass

    ASES Award Winner
    Posted 19 days ago
    The big
    secret abour adobe is it acts like a phase change material. Latent cooling is dramatically adding cooling through its hydoscopic interaction with moisture. Better then stone or concrete.
    Please read the work by Dr John Maroney. It is extremely effective. Im getting a 21 degree delta T. Here in NM. It looks good too.

     



    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Thermal mass

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 19 days ago

    Adobe is also lower carbon than concrete, and much lower than batteries, for storing energy.



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    M Keith Sharp
    Emeritus Professor
    Louisville KY
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    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Thermal mass

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 19 days ago

    Not fair to compare with batteries. Electricity has a much higher energy "value" than just pure heat. The same must be noted when comparing solar thermal to PV. Lower carbon is a fair statement...



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    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
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    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Thermal mass

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 19 days ago

    It is true that batteries store greater exergy (we used to call this availability). But even adjusted for their greater exergy, say with a futuristic heat pump COP of  5, adobe and concrete still have lower carbon per unit of energy stored. Factor in battery replacements over the lifetime of adobe and concrete, and the comparison is even more lopsided.



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    M Keith Sharp
    Emeritus Professor
    Louisville KY
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    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: Thermal mass

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 18 days ago
    Edited by william fitch 18 days ago

    Your missing half the equation. Your futuristic heat pump is still trying to compare electricity converted to heat, which is not the point. Suppose you needed to drive your EV or make a cell phone call in an emergency. How is you low embedded carbon going to help you with that? It can't. And there is where the higher form of energy is invaluable. Electricity is what allows for green iron + other metals to be made VS Coke and Limestone. It is the highest form of energy we can create easily. Embedded Carbon is important, but it not the entire meal, any more than comparing the embedded Carbon of EV's to ICE vehicles.... ignoring the ongoing use of FF that EV's don't have...

    Its not just about numbers, its about capability...



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    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
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    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: Thermal mass

    Posted 18 days ago

    I find this an interesting discussion.

    It seems to me that these pieces of our present building world, electricity storage and thermal mass are complimentary to each other rather than competing.

    The thermal mass in a building stores and evens out heat energy, reducing the buildings heating and cooling load, thus reducing the electrical energy requirement's to keep a living space in a comfortable range for the occupants.

    Both electron storage and thermal mass working together to support our effort's to build super energy efficient and comfortable dwellings.



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    Steve Kawell
    Owner
    Durango Solar Homes
    Durango CO
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    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: Thermal mass

    ASES Award Winner
    Posted 18 days ago

    A room full of large plants adds to the thermal mass. Planters with moist dirt, and large green plants are mostly water. Photosynthesis allows the plants to take in CO2, releasing  O2, and turning the carbon into  protein and beautiful fragrant flowers. I do not know how to compare that to Lithium Batteries.

    image


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    Mark Chalom
    Builder/Architect/ Educator
    Solar Design & Analysis
    Santa Fe NM
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    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: Thermal mass

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 18 days ago

    I don't either. I love plants and have some Cactus that are as big as yours pictured. They are outside now enjoying the Summer heat. Just don't accidentally back into one... OOch!!

    I am putting on a 900 sqft super insulated addition in, which will have PV up on its roof (About 7KW) and R50-60 walls and ceiling. High thermal mass inside with passive solar radiant floors in 8 to 9" of concrete. The addition is 450 sqft up and 450 sqft down. The down gets the sun thru a south glass wall. The radiant loops transfer the heat from the lower floor to the upper on a 24/7 basis, etc.. The connection of Sun-room with Master bedroom, etc.. (Open ceiling) has interesting HVAC possibilities...

    AS Steve noted above, the are not mutually exclusive..



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    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 16.  RE: Thermal mass

    Posted 18 days ago
    William, your addition design sounds intriguing.
    Does a 8"-9" thick floor slab work out to be the best thickness for thermal mass?
    For years we built passive solar structures with 5" concrete slabs and 4" of under slab rigid insulation.
    Also put tubing in the slab for winter time hot water radiant heating.
    This floor thermal mass setup was fairly cost effective and made for a comfortable all season space.

    Steve Kawell 
    Durango Solar Homes
     





    Original Message


  • 17.  RE: Thermal mass

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 18 days ago

    Yes. Its an approximation. I wanted no less than 7 and no more then 9 (A waste). The 24/7 run time obliviously applies to heating season only. The truck the contractor had come in was a pumper, but it was huge!! Its pictured on my website, www.WeAreSolar.com. I called it a steel rainbow.

    I am putting in a 5 gallon 120VAC hot water heater in the loop as well. I am doing this just as a backup, to transfer a few extra BTU's if ever needed. The rest is done with a split unit heat pump, 18,000 BTU. Again, probably won't get much use, maybe in Summer for cooling... a little heating.. I will use 3 very energy efficient circs, low wattage in series for the flow through the pex, check valves removed for two of them.

    The insulation is costing a fortune, 4" Isocyanate + rock wool, all 2x12's 24OC. The ceiling will be I-joists (12") instead for better span strength.... etc..

    Looking forward to real numbers....



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    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 18.  RE: Thermal mass

    ASES Award Winner
    Posted 18 days ago
    Now your talking! 




    Original Message


  • 19.  RE: Thermal mass

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 18 days ago

    Bill,

    This thread is about keeping a building comfortable indoors when it is hot outside, so heat is exactly the point. Managing heat with thermal mass has many advantages as already discussed. Adobe and concrete can also hold up the roof. Try doing that with batteries! There are arguments both ways, but it is generally true that low exergy demands are best met with low exergy sources. This is exemplified by the simplicity of adobe and concrete just sitting there doing the job, versus the complication of creating electricity, converting it to electrochemicals (in a battery), converting it back to electricity, running a motor for a vapor/compression cycle, running a motor to blow the air around, and controlling it with a thermostat.

    I have lived in a code-built house with a noisy heat pump with costly repairs and with indoor temperature changing minute by minute. Since living in a super-insulated, high thermal mass house without a heat pump, I know which I prefer.



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    M Keith Sharp
    Emeritus Professor
    Louisville KY
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    Original Message


  • 20.  RE: Thermal mass

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 19 days ago

    I love the fireplace! Reminds me of a big chiminea! Great color combination as well... 

    Scanned through the article. Evaporative cooling from normal "osmotic" air exchange... nice effect...

    Good that it seasonally swaps... Important data to note...

    In the right climate a good choice...



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    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 21.  RE: Thermal mass

    Posted 19 days ago

    That's a beautiful Home the southwest adobe is great with the thick walls reminds me of Phoenix. A lot of the old houses there would just use evaporative cooling in the summer (April 1st till November 1st) and it worked great unit Monsoon season (dew point above 55 degrees) then it was a bit of tough sledding. But the old timers there thought it was a badge of honor to not need refrigerant based cooling.



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    Shawn Masterson Sr
    Mechanical Contractor
    Nor Cal Mechanical LLC
    ------------------------------

    Original Message