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Zoom Discussion - Will Bi-Directional EV Charging become a Reality in 2024 (Solar Noon Tuesday discussion)

  • 1.  Zoom Discussion - Will Bi-Directional EV Charging become a Reality in 2024 (Solar Noon Tuesday discussion)

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 01-16-2024 01:31 PM

    In addition to recapping the week's solar news, we discuss whether or not bi-directional charging will be a "thing" in 2024.  

    Each Tuesday at noon (Eastern) solarPVtraining.com hosts a Zoom sessions for students (or anyone, really) interested in solar.  Generally discussion focuses on technical questions, problems or troubleshooting - or just what is happening in solar that week.

    Join Zoom Meeting each Tuesday at
    https://zoom.us/j/91067004366?pwd=b1d...

    Meeting ID: 910 6700 4366
    Password: 625623



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    Jay Warmke
    Owner
    Blue Rock Station LLC
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  • 2.  RE: Zoom Discussion - Will Bi-Directional EV Charging become a Reality in 2024 (Solar Noon Tuesday discussion)

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 01-17-2024 11:56 AM
    Edited by william fitch 01-17-2024 11:58 AM

    WARNING!! Possible spoiler alert. Maybe.

    As a hypothetical alert, my guess is no, at least no more of an uptick then the current rise.

    The problem is simply this. If you are interested in a bidirectional charger, that implies gening your own 240VAC to tie to you house in power down scenarios (Unless you just want to play around with extension cords). Now, in order to do that you must have an automatic disconnect for your main breaker panel or a specially wired BIG subpanel for all the loads you want to be able to run in the grid down situation. 

    Now, not to run log here. So it is not simply that I buy a bi-directional and presto by house it lit when everyone else is not. A whole systems approach must be taken for many reasons. And that does not even cover people who already have a backup power system who would like to be able to add their EV into the mix (Like me). Then it becomes a "war" over which inverter gets to be the Virgin and the others follow that lead... etc..

    SO, no.



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    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
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  • 3.  RE: Zoom Discussion - Will Bi-Directional EV Charging become a Reality in 2024 (Solar Noon Tuesday discussion)

    Posted 01-17-2024 03:06 PM

    EVs batteries look like "low-hanging fruits" but they will be hard to grab in practice. To me, cost and voltage level standardization are the main barriers.

    -For fleet operators (Cars, buses, trucks) with an important battery size, more predictable vehicles locations and state of charge profile, it may make more sense to consider bidirectional charging to provide services to the grid. However, for EVs in residential areas, the number of hours/year when the bidirectional feature is used, combined with the relatively small size of the battery may make the system benefit less than the added cost.

    -I remember a study published on this platform revealed that overinvesting in solar PV panels and curtailing the output was cheaper than investing in batteries. Also if the future cost of batteries declines as solar panels cost in the past decade, the gymnastic of bidirectional charging may become useless. The impact of bidirectional charging on battery life is not well proven yet to my knowledge. A lot of uncertainties ahead .....

    -what I see as possible in the future is to use the EV battery with the solar PV inverter as a backup in off-grid mode.



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    Elias OUEDRAOGO
    Business Developer
    Future Energy Company
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  • 4.  RE: Zoom Discussion - Will Bi-Directional EV Charging become a Reality in 2024 (Solar Noon Tuesday discussion)

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 01-17-2024 03:57 PM

    Maybe. Not having the bi-directional EV charger having its own inverter like they do now, using a "regulated" input switch for EV batteries to use the PV solar array DC input (Somehow adjusting DC voltage differentials for daytime) could cut the bi-directional cost and who gets to be "boss" problem go away. EV battery voltage ranges today are usually not over 600VDC, and usual grid-tie PV solar array voltages are 300-600VDC (Some 1000VDC), so the PV array inverter could "take what it wants" which would most likely be way less than the car is used to supplying while driving. Obviously software and some hardware required, but the expense of another full inverter is gone.



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    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
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  • 5.  RE: Zoom Discussion - Will Bi-Directional EV Charging become a Reality in 2024 (Solar Noon Tuesday discussion)

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 01-18-2024 03:16 AM

    William - 

    As you say, many things to work out before bi-directional charging becomes a widespread reality.  I think this discussion was great because we had as a guest the CEO of a car charging firm - so he could lend perspective into what they are dealing with.  I believe it will become a reality sooner that we all might imagine.  The problem with knowing a lot about a technology is that you see all the reasons it can't work - without imagining why it will work.

    Jay Warmke



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    Jay Warmke
    Owner
    Blue Rock Station LLC
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  • 6.  RE: Zoom Discussion - Will Bi-Directional EV Charging become a Reality in 2024 (Solar Noon Tuesday discussion)

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 01-18-2024 07:41 AM
    Edited by william fitch 01-18-2024 07:45 AM

    Looking at a problem from the shoes of the Auto mfg. is interesting. No one most likely can give you a more detailed understanding of all the problems on their end. Should be interesting.

    You last sentence I do not agree with. It is a cute sounding sound byte as many statements are. It is simply a different version of the question, "Is the glass half empty or half full"

    My answer to the latter is always, neither. It is a function of process. If the glass was empty and now 1/2, then it is half full. If it was full and now 1/2. Then it is half empty.

    Occom's Razor is a similar cute idea. On its surface, it is correct. However in realty, it's all how you verbally frame the statements you are comparing. A good movie example is the Senate hearing near the end of the movie, "Contact", regarding the Razor. Its all how the character Michael Kitz (James Woods) frames it.

    Regarding the knowledge working against you, so to speak, another movie example. The movie, "Lucy" near the end, the following dialog:

    Professor Norman:

    "But all of this

    knowledge, Lucy...

    I'm not even sure that

    mankind is ready for it.

    We're so driven by

    power and profit.

    Given man's nature,

    it might bring us only

    instability and chaos."

    Lucy:

    "Ignorance brings chaos,

    not knowledge."

    I think you can substitute vision and understanding, clarity of thought lacking, for chaos in Lucy's statement.


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    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
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  • 7.  RE: Zoom Discussion - Will Bi-Directional EV Charging become a Reality in 2024 (Solar Noon Tuesday discussion)

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 01-18-2024 04:06 PM

    For those of us with PV systems that have a generator input for charging batteries and load support (during outages for grid-tied systems), a vehicle with 240V split phase output would be ideal.  I believe the Cybertruck incorporates this feature.  I wish other manufacturers would do this without requiring their own proprietary connection circuitry, as for example the Ford Lightning setup requires.



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    Mike Curran
    Retired EE
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  • 8.  RE: Zoom Discussion - Will Bi-Directional EV Charging become a Reality in 2024 (Solar Noon Tuesday discussion)

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 01-18-2024 04:41 PM
    Edited by william fitch 01-19-2024 06:52 AM

    Its funny you would say that. Ironically, looking at ONLY MYSELF, an integrated system will never fly for me for many reasons. But a fully manual system can work. Using a Bidirectional (With inverter as now made) to a separate 240VAC breaker, and, once my main backup system has "run the course", I can switch it off and engage the Bi and car battery for "round two" so to speak. 

    Really the only question is, do I want to spend 3K+$ for a Bi to be able to use the cars when the "normal" backup runs out. Time will tell I guess.....

    Sometimes full integration is not what it is "cracked up" to be...

    EDIT 1/19

    I think what I said might be being taken the wrong way, in part. When I say using the cars, I don't mean driving them, I mean using the cars batteries because the primary backup has already run its course (Going dead). I don't use a gen. 100% RE only. So the cars batteries would be used as a second power source.



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    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
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  • 9.  RE: Zoom Discussion - Will Bi-Directional EV Charging become a Reality in 2024 (Solar Noon Tuesday discussion)

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 01-18-2024 07:38 PM
    Edited by Mike Curran 01-18-2024 07:48 PM

    I'm not suggesting the PV system be capable of charging the EV's battery.  All I'm saying is that an EV battery (via a 240VAC connection) might be a better option for additional backup power (rather than a bigger stationary battery) for those with home PV systems that already incorporate a backup battery. 

    Most every PV system with a string inverter and a connected battery has the capability of using (in off-grid systems) or switching to (in grid-tied systems) a generator input when the system battery is low.  Of course, today most people don't have PV systems, and those that do don't have batteries, so perhaps I'm talking about a special case.  I'm hopeful that'll change so that more people make their own power, and the large batteries in EVs might be one small incentive to take the plunge.



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    Mike Curran
    Retired EE
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  • 10.  RE: Zoom Discussion - Will Bi-Directional EV Charging become a Reality in 2024 (Solar Noon Tuesday discussion)

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 01-19-2024 06:45 AM

    "I'm not suggesting the PV system be capable of charging the EV's battery.  All I'm saying is that an EV battery might be a better option for additional backup power (rather than a bigger stationary battery) for those with home PV systems that already incorporate a backup battery. "

    Exactly.



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    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
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