Everything Solar Forum

communities_1.jpg

 View Only
Expand all | Collapse all

Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

  • 1.  Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    Posted 09-09-2021 06:35 PM
    I know very llitle about this but Irecall that very high amounts of energy (momentum) can be st;ored on flywheels, very large heavy disks that spin at high rpm, on axles supported on ball bearings, in an enclosed container (do not want this thing to fly apart out in the open) and the container is air evacuated to near vacuum. Very little friction loss. How could this be used? Stationary Vehicles. I know not from whence I speak; I am a lawyer, not an engineer. I would like to hear any thoughts on this.    


  • 2.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 09-10-2021 09:15 AM
    The technology is more or less set, the economy requires scale-up. The challenge is providing a positive regulatory environment thru rate setting to accommodate this relatively narrow but vital niche. Regulators are still in an embryonic state on this policy. This may be where your legal skillset can come into play. PS, the answer can be both.--
    Mark Burger

    Follow me on Linkedin and Twitter #markburgerenerg






  • 3.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    Posted 09-10-2021 09:30 AM
    My understanding is that despite efforts to minimize losses (e.g., air cushion bearings) it still takes a lot of energy to keep a massive flywheel spinning - and to spin it back up after being depleted. As such, this technology is more appropriate for smoothing loads in large scale systems with batteries or other systems still providing the deep energy storage. Different technologies are applicable to different systems. Energy storage will take different forms dependent upon the situation. Kinetic energy storage will likely play its biggest role in assuring power quality

    ------------------------------
    Tracy Dahl
    Polarsolar@hughes.net
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 09-10-2021 09:37 AM
    Vaguely remember a lot of study done on flywheels, but reason to be discounted no.  An Internet search will probably provide as much reasoning as this website. Always good to engage in study.
                           dnb





  • 5.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 09-10-2021 10:27 AM
    Harmon -

    Flywheels can store a lot of energy, but they're not without their challenges.  Efficiency concerns dictate very close attention to friction reduction schemes, like maglev bearings and evacuated containers, and the competing technologies (batteries, capacitors, pumped storage hydro) set the bar pretty high.  Lower-speed flywheels are heavy.  Lightweight flywheels have to spin extremely fast (dentist drill speeds) to store much energy, which makes any structural failure catastrophic.

    In vehicles, crash safety is a very big deal, and precession forces aren't trivial (they're usually addressed by putting two counter-rotating flywheels in one container).  Speaking as an automotive engineer with 40 years experience in energy and emissions development, there are a few reasons to consider flywheels in terrestrial vehicular applications, but a whole lot more reasons not to.  I suspect my colleagues in the utility and off-grid world would say the same.

    Hope this helps.  Best,

    Dave Erb





  • 6.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    Posted 09-10-2021 10:40 AM
    Unfortunately for the vast majority of applications the economics don't work to use flywheels.  The possible exceptions are applications that cycle a million or more times (capturing and returning energy from subway train stops, extreme grid stability issues).  
    Power density of flywheels is a little better than lead acid batteries, but the energy density is much worse.  
    Tracy is correct, the parasitic losses are high.  And Dave is correct, no one will want a 60,000rpm flywheel in their truck when they can have a non moving lithium ion battery.
    We developed flywheels for transportation and stationary applications in the 1990s, but the lithium ion battery came in and proved a much better solution.

    ------------------------------
    Brian Jensen
    brian@jensenenergyresearch.com
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 09-10-2021 11:09 AM
    I was considering stationary applications.--
    Mark Burger

    Follow me on Linkedin and Twitter #markburgerenerg






  • 8.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    Posted 09-10-2021 12:37 PM
    The only stationary application where it may make sense in my opinion is to smooth out the fluctuations at the transit substations.  Dozens of 10-15 second full capacity high power cycles per day by trains entering and leaving the stations.

    ------------------------------
    Brian Jensen
    brian@jensenenergyresearch.com
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 09-10-2021 01:19 PM
    Yeah, that sounds right, how will regulators price that value?--
    Mark Burger

    Follow me on Linkedin and Twitter #markburgerenerg






  • 10.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 09-10-2021 02:22 PM
    A flywheel installation has been operating near my home (a one hour drive) for the past ten years.






  • 11.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    Posted 09-11-2021 10:18 AM





  • 12.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 01-23-2025 04:09 PM
    Harmon Lookhoff asked about rotational inertia energy storage.  This link https://beaconpower.com/stephentown-new-york/ describes flywheel energy storage located about a one hour drive from my home.  Electricity storage at this site started more than ten years ago.





  • 13.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 01-24-2025 10:22 AM

    Beacon Power addressed the New York Solar Energy Society years ago at our conference in Troy. NY. Spinning reserves are useful for glitches and smoothing out the dips. They can be used frequently without compromising the magnets.

    A LOT of lithium batteries, solar and wind pulled Texas through last week's icy storm with style! I think we're stuck with old lithium a little while longer.

    VIZN is another great, benign battery. It's up to most of us as ratepayers to demand the best service, educate each other and get more energy for less.



    ------------------------------
    Wyldon Fishman
    President and Founder
    New York Solar Energy Society (NYSES)
    Bronx NY
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 01-24-2025 09:04 AM

    Ya. Its one of those that had its look in the sun, so to speak. KISS and preferably not moving (PV) are ideal guidelines. Things that move at a high rate of speed demand accelerating precision as the speed increases. At the opposite end of the kinetic scale is filling rail cars with heavy ore and powering it up hill to collect energy, and run it downhill to exit the energy. Actually a safer bet. The closest and best gened energy is PV. No moving parts. They just need to get the efficiency to 50%. Get that far and everything changes, along with room temp super conductors. Different world. 

    Complex design makes for good profit. KISS makes for good engineering.



    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 01-28-2025 11:34 AM

    KISS has been on my list to help create a draft infographic! I'll try to send you a draft soon, @william fitch!



    ------------------------------
    Ella Nielsen
    Membership & Engagement Director
    American Solar Energy Society
    Boulder CO
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 01-28-2025 05:38 PM

    I am curious of your vector on that.



    ------------------------------
    william fitch
    Owner
    www.WeAreSolar.com
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 01-29-2025 08:51 AM

    I'll keep you posted - on the other online community thread that we originally discussed this on!

    Thanks so much,

    Ella



    ------------------------------
    Ella Nielsen
    Membership & Engagement Director
    American Solar Energy Society
    Boulder CO
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    ASES Life Member
    Posted 01-29-2025 09:18 AM

    Invest in a battery for any solar.. Learn about the interface. They come in various models. If you have a well pump, make sure it's a slow starter. 

    Batteries help undo some of the whole net-metering entanglement. But, you need to know a simple list of stuff. Like, if they get drained, will the sunlight trigger the solar modules to wake up the inverter? If you have neighbors with a similar system, wifi can overlap! Consider the advantages of hard wire.

    Never accept a damaged battery. 

    We've had experience with boilers, gas lines, pilots and all sorts of old-style equipment post the era of chopping wood. Start small and you'll enjoy the difference. Don't buy a big system and forgo the battery to save money. Get fewer modules and use your power if the utility has a glitch. If you have no batteries, the utility shuts off your system as it can backfeed down the line and hurt a repairman. 



    ------------------------------
    Wyldon Fishman
    President and Founder
    New York Solar Energy Society (NYSES)
    Bronx NY
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    Silver
    Contributor
    Posted 01-24-2025 10:39 AM
    Edited by Timothy Mcbride 01-24-2025 04:49 PM

    The flywheels are located next to an existing ground mounted solar array at a distributed energy generation facility. The flywheels were designed for energy arbitrage to reduce peak load and increase grid reliability.

    PV Powered Flywheels

    As all things that humans create for energy one must always take into account all the cost to make the darn thing from cradle to the grave. In most cases the complete cost to mine, fabricate, process, develop, manufactor, distribution, maintenance, repair, retrofit, upgrade, and then hopefully recycle the thing, would cost a larger carbon footprint in the long run than the thing was designed to offset in the first place.  The modest hybrid self-sufficient stand alone solar cabins, homes, farmsteads, and PV micro-grid villages where human beings actually live, has already been proven to be the most efficient way to live upon this planet. Big Picture at scale,  all other experimentation at this juncture in our opinion is sheer foolishness, as far as carbon combustion pollution is concerned, and will all fall by the wayside. As a global electric civilization we are going to have to get serious about how this electricity is produced,  trust the science,  and make a move collectively in a sustainable direction away from this path of destruction.  

    "There is a way that seems right to man but instead is the path to destruction " is a phrase from the Bible, which means that sometimes a path may appear to be the correct choice for humanity but in the end, it can lead to negative consequences or destruction; essentially, a warning against relying solely on current avenues  without considering the long-term effects.


    ------------------------------
    Timothy Mcbride
    CEOOwner
    Sol-Era R & D
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Energy storage - Battery v. Flywheel

    Posted 01-27-2025 11:31 AM

    The operation and economics of flywheels only make sense for very short high power operations (2-25 seconds), such as grid support for very high peak loads (subways, etc.).  Please also see my post on this topic 09-10-2021.

    Brian



    ------------------------------
    Brian Jensen
    ------------------------------